Veal

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by johnv, Jun 30, 2014.


  1. Are we not already there now?
     
  2. It could definitely be argued that we are in our way.
     
  3. I live in the country and get a lot of my meat from the local farmers, I am lucky I know the provenance of it. Do I feel guilty when I watch the calves playing in the field and the new born lambs chasing each other, a touch of sentimentality comes to the fore, however it is the way of life.
    When the farmer is lambing often my son would see them born, he would then have a lamb roast with us, knowing where it came from.
    I count myself lucky in this, to be able to know the provenance and buy direct.
    I hate what the big supermarkets are doing to our farmers, so many I know work other jobs just to continue living a way of life they love.
    What concerns me more is our reliance on imports and even more the general publics reliance on processed food. Interesting programme on C4 last night about the healthiest nation and their diets. Basically if you eat lots of processed food you are going to be fat (no shit Sherlock), and how the Big multi national corporations identify new markets and the kids are buying into it, the pressure is then on the parents to maintain this. Lots of talk about how we used to only eat meat as a treat, which I remember.
    As an aside;
    If it doesn't matter how we treat our livestock, is it ok to kill an animal by slitting its throat and allowing it to bleed to death, all in the name of religion?
     
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  4. It's pretty acceptable to trap rabbits in a wire noose and throttle itself to death. I see no difference. The animal would have had a worse death being torn apart by dogs/wolves/disease/injury/draught/starvation.

    It's food. Don't torture it while it's alive, don't cause excessive suffering in death, protect it from predation and exposure to extreme weather and make sure it has enough to eat and drink. What more do you want? A single room per cow with a TV and a cuddle every morning with breakfast?

    An animal needs to be bled once it's dead any way, I'd imagine halal slaughter is quite effective regardless of the connotations that accompany it.
     
  5. Quite a lot of sentimental socialists on this thread who probably own a Ducati for pleasure. Sure, have a go at capitalism. Swap the Ducati for a Trebant and trundle around looking for the shortest potato queue. Utter tripe.

    If I was dropped off with a pack of wild animals about, no doubt some could have a go. Except I can use tools and evolution has given me the wits to survive.

    If you have view that animals are all different, I'm at peace with that. It doesn't mean I have to sign up to thinking of a cow I eat differently to an insect I kill to keep my home free of wasps. It's a free country (and market). Some animals are just bred and used for food, modern slaughter methods are a lot more humane than snaring rabbits as some on here seem to think we should all do.

    I've also fished for sport, something socialists would never ban as too may left-leaning people do it and vote Labour. A ban on fox hunting of course, impacts a smaller community and Labour figure the votes lost are OK.

    I'm off to swap the bikes for a horse and cart, then I'll catch my supper and wonder what is was like when we had the internet and stuff like that....
     
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  6. If only a handful of people own everything how on earth do the "Serfs" afford to buy the very things that would keep the rich people rich?
    That is an extrapolation too far and is not actually what will happen. A balance of sorts exists and always will. You may not like being at the level you are on the scale, i'm not particularly, but there isn't a better alternative.

    If the balance gets too biased a little readjustment happens, revolution if you like, reset all the players and off we go again. We have been there before and will again but the system prevails.

    Sorry for wandering off topic.
     

  7. Because it's terminally flawed. Capitalism depends on continuing growth, which is simply impossible as we have finite energy, finite resources and finite space. With a global population of say 500 million we could live in equilibrium almost indefinitely. With a constantly expanding population we are crafting our own inevitable doom.
     
  8. Tom, I think a hotel with full en suite facilities, play stations and massages for our live stock is a fab idea, imagine how much better the meat would taste from a happy cow :)
    I was interested in others views about the Halal? so you don't see it as torture or suffering? suffocating as you bleed to death?
    I don't disagree with a lot that you are saying, and if I had to kill to survive I am sure I could and would do. What I struggle with as previously said is the unnecessary suffering. However I don't think that you can compare an animal that has grown in the wild that is then caught by a bigger predator and killed and eaten with the intensive farming methods and less than brilliant animal husbandry that occurs throughout the world that leads to suffering.
    Predators see their pray as food it is the way of the world, however in this context quite often the animals are a 'product' in a supply chain, with a business supplying the product with profit being king over and above any thought given to the 'product'.
     
  9. "Quite a lot of sentimental socialists on this thread who probably own a Ducati for pleasure."

    own a bike for pleasure ?,oh my god,noooooo..where?..shoot them.. god forbid anyone having pleasure,simply not allowed in naz...oh hang on.

    top of food chain? maybe,in safe surbiton anyway,,brain chain?.. definately at the bottom id say,less intelligence than a squirrel.

    ;)

     
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  10. Philoldsmobile i think,with respect you are wrong sir. Capitalism as we recognise it today might have limits but not as a system of existance.
    Finite energy is just not true for a start.
    Finite resources is only an issue if what you want to buy is tangible, did you not read what i wrote?
    Finite space, yes that i grant you is a problem but the rate of population increase is already slowing and one day the actual number will fall. Ultimately not an issue and we will continue.
     
  11. Interesting viewpoint. I'm still convinced capitalism as we know it will fail, or at the very least face some massive restructuring. I feel the re establishment of an achievable middle class is necessary, as at the moment those at the bottom have almost no path to progress along, and unless you are a CEO the reward for toil is too small.

    I also feel the introduction of state owned competitors in things like the fuel and energy markets, and housing markets could keep essentials from running away. These government 'competitors' could run on an open books, cost plus x% profit margin. One of the greatest threats we currently face is the drastic over valuation of housing, especially in the south east. I earn a decent living, and pay a lot of tax yet the housing market is almost off limits to me, and my only way into a property (as a residence, not investment) is going to be when I'm in a committed long term relationship. As a single person it's *almost* possible, but surely as someone who works hard and earns a good wage shouldn't I be a little further ahead? Where is my reward for toil?
     
    #131 philoldsmobile, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
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  12. The biggest clue that the current system is broken is the difficulty and cost of accessing housing. Even the veal calves have a dry place to sleep. It's a fundamental basic need in life; to have somewhere safe to sleep. Yet it costs more than 50% of the average wage to rent a 2up 2down house in Wiltshire. (By average wage I mean the most common salary offered by employers [~£20k], not the mystical average salary the government provides.) after tax at basic rate an individual would need to spend over 3/4 if their wage on rent, council tax and electricity and water. There is no alternative choice but to live in poverty and struggle to make ends meet. All in order to make property owners wealthy. Bare in mind that in order to get a mortgage one must already be well off and that the cost of housing far exceeds the sum of it's construction costs. Houses of a reasonable age have paid for themselves several times in terms of mortgages over the last 50 years and their initial construction costs.


    It's mental. And if one tries to leave the system by going and living in the woods, or a cave or some such alternative then one is either arrested and jailed or entirely excluded from access to any semblance of life.

    You must put money in to the pockets of the rich, who will out compete each other monetarily until only one is standing. This is capitalism and it's destroying your happiness.
     
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  13. I think we are the only animal that does give a fuck about how another is treated prior to being snuffed out or how nice the said snuffing out process is! Whilst it may be inhumane to put a lil calf in a warm box with lots of food, peace and quiet for a few weeks (along with the obvious separation from its mother issues that may lead it to live an unbalanced , albeit short life) before its quick and one would hope painless death.
    Surely this cant be any worse than being born on the African planes to a mother so dehydrated it cant suckle its new born, seeing mum eaten alive by hyenas, escaping into a baron landscape for a few days before finally succumbing the heat and being pecked to fucken bits by vultures.....
    Not that domestic cattle as we know em wander the African planes but you get the picture.. I'm not into cruelty to animals but we are not talking extracting finger nails and water boarding ffs.
    P.s its a well known fact that carrots can scream and there for have feelings too... so any hippys out there make sure you only dig em up at night (very quietly) and chop their tops of before they wake...
    Disclaimer... Unfortunately no hippys were harmed in the writing of this blurb...
     
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  14. In regards to water boarding... It's really a self-inflicted distress; easily avoided by early and effective co-operation.
     
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  15. Anyone with any empathy or care, would do their utmost to insure the animal is treated with respect. What Hyena's and the like do is another thing. They are not sentient. We are. Anyone who would willfully torture another animal prior to it being slain for food will get whats coming to them at some point. I'm not an animal activist and I understand that food is food. However if one is unnecessary cruel to the beasts it is safe to say they are cruel in other walks of their life. It takes nothing to be respectful and thankful for the food on our plate. Nothing.
     
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  16. I don't know ping... My brother used to put a flannel over me mouth and pour water over it long before it became "trendy" and no amount of prior co-operation would stop him...
     
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  17. That's brothers isn't it. My big brother used a highly effective manoeuvre on me known as The Petrol Pumps. A pressure on the recipient's bicep with a knee accompanied by rapid forces arm movements.
     
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  18. If you want to avoid cruelty and treating the animal without respect then outlaw religious practices such as halal meat.

    Oddly, we seem to live in fear that the offensive practice of halal slaughter is less offensive than making it illegal in a country that supposedly is animal-loving.

    With that sort of attitude, it is not capitalism we should fear....
     
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  19. We don't need to fear Islam either. Catastrophic blood loss is a pretty quick way to go and hardly less brutal than a bolt in the head or a stun. At the very least death is guaranteed.


    I don't see anything wrong with Halal slaughter, it's quick, effective, cheap and it provides the uneducated citizens of those Islamic countries that are yet to develop, a more humane method of slaughter than, say, stoning.
     
  20. I'll chance the bolt to the head thanks
     
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