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999rs' Red Headed Step Child

Discussion in 'Builds & Projects' started by Seven4nineR, Jun 30, 2021.

  1. Long story not so short: I cooked the big end bearings on my beloved 749R track/race bike, moved countries, dragged broken bike, rebuilt life, looked for quick fix, found a 999RS engine (AMA version with mandated starter motor) and thought “life is too short, WTH?!”. Only to have it rock up with no starter...and no starter motor could possibly be fitted due to the crank not being drilled: “normal” RS not AMA spec.....aaaah shit!
    Battled away, eventually rode a sublime beast of a thing, but a local track closure made it absolute overkill with our remaining “goat track”, not to mention impractical for starting etc. (You think this is a long story? Don’t get me started on the ins and outs of how I arrived here!).
    So the 749R engine was eventually rebuilt with some Sauron brew of crank grinding and Suzuki bearings and reinstalled.
    And it was a lil’ ripper, again. But what to do with the 999RS?
    I’d inherited a bent 749R frame when I originally bought the bike years before, and pretty much forgotten about it.....but I found myself wondering: how bent was it?
    [​IMG]
    After carefully setting it up against the “good” 749R it proved to be compromised by just 0.5deg.
    Fuck it, I can live with that.
    So the build was on:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. I’d be gutted if I cooked the bearings on my own beloved 749R trackbike!

    Looking forward to the next instalment!
     
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  3. Thanks, hadn’t thought of that, I was too busy swearing and cursing hand-filing 4 sets of these lil’ bastards without a milling machine, lol.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (note, only roughed out here, machined again post welding)

    This project was pretty much born out of looking around the shed and realising I had most of another bike sitting on the shelves in the form of spares and take-off’s from the 749R....the trouble is, once you start building and it looks half-decent you realise why they are sitting on the shelf as a lot of it was pretty tatty. This is my roundabout way of saying don’t expect anything too pretty!

    Having said that, the project/possibility had rattled around in my head for a couple of years and I'd managed to squirrel a few things away to fill in the blanks when funds allowed.

    One of the wee treasures was a Febur swingarm, offered at a very un-Febur price by a very kind gentleman.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Yes, that is the right way up, it is the opposite bracing configuration to the "underslung" 749R arm. It’s not as tough looking as some of the other options but it’s 1.8kg lighter and a smidge longer than OEM.

    If you look closely you'll see it's missing a couple of bushes at the pivot bearings, so my lil’ hobbby lathe got to work on a lump of Titanium...who knew that shit was/is such a mongrel to machine? Poor heat transfer makes it very tricky, turning normal drill bits into a molten mess as the heat can't escape. Some self-edumacation eventually got me on the right track and I just copied the steel 749R units....after discovering just how expensive carbide drill bits are:

    [​IMG]
     
    #3 Seven4nineR, Jul 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
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  4. I dunno how the fuck you clever buggers manage to build these amazing things and document it so well, seriously, once I've finished catching up on shit around the property after working away from home, I'm lucky to find time for an hour or two on the bike, then beer is my first priority after the conniptions the fukn thing has given me.....who can document anything in that state of mind/inebriation?!

    But fairs fair, time I repaid your enjoyable efforts with at least a half-arsed effort of of my own...

    So (finally) continuing from above) the Ti bushes worked a treat (don't mention the chain slider!):

    [​IMG]

    The other side has a simple sealed bearing vs the open roller bearing above so only "needed" some alloy spacers turned up to replace the steel units:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hmmmm, I've seen cockroaches that weighed more than what these were saving but what the hell, it only took me a couple of beers to knock them out.

    It would take 5 minutes to bolt it to the frame at this point but that wouldn't really accomplish much, I needed to sort a shock to secure it in position rather than just leave it dangling like a broken branch. It's not often I'm prepared but there is an exception to every rule and I had a rebuilt 749R Ohlins shock/link etc on hand....who'd have thunk it?!

    Apologies if I'm telling you how to suck eggs here: the 749R Ohlins shock has a shorter stroke than the 999R or 999S Ohlins equivalent (56mm vs. 71mm), much stiffer spring and damping, and a flat rate linkage vs. progressive rate. Horses for courses, the progressive setup is more forgiving on the road where the flat setup is the duck's nuts on track.

    Having said that, I'd had ongoing problems with chewing up rear tyres on the 749R and it had taken me a while to figure out what I thought was cold tearing was actually hot tearing. Looking back it's amazing I lived with it for so long, but it was quite track specific, so with the the bike out of action (see intro) then the main culprit (Wanneroo, my local track) closed to bikes, it fell off the radar for far longer than it ordinarily would have.

    Sorry, not the best pic, but this is about as good as a tyre would ever look heading home after right-hander heavy Wanneroo, most looked worse, especially back when actually racing:

    [​IMG]

    But realistically now I was only getting out for the occasional trackday, not racing, and mostly just buying used take-off rubber, so I'd either just flip the thing (gotta luv Pirelli's) or head for our only other track (Collie) which happened to be counter-clockwise and I'd get by....until the next time. But things were only going to be worse with some extra RS hp added to the mix.

    Online discussion from some experienced 749R racers/tuners was pretty universal in concluding the OEM shock spring, at 120Nm (12kg) was too heavy/stiff, overworking the tyre. Even riders the calibre of Doug Chandler riding a 749R in AMA Formula Extreme only used 100 - 105Nm spring rates (info kindly supplied by Mark Sutton at Ducshop).

    As luck would have it a contact was offloading a box of surplus Ohlins springs from a workshop clearance which, even allowing for shipping, were crazy cheap.

    So, the OEM spring = 120Nm:

    [​IMG]

    Amongst the springs in the box were a 105Nm and a 97.5Nm. The old bastard looking back from the mirror didn't even remotely resemble Mr Chandler so I pumped for the 97.5Nm:

    [​IMG]

    Another (piss poor) reason I hadn't played with springs earlier was the assumption I'd need the shock spring compressor I didn't have, a situation my credit card rectified once the springs arrived.....only to realise I didn't bloody need it! The first shock, Ohlins or otherwise, I've seen where you could just slacken off the collars to remove the tension on the spring, slip off the lower spring perch, and it all falls to bits: too easy!

    See the shock ready for spring removal below:

    [​IMG]

    Note: yes a hydraulic preload adjuster would be great, but are just a crazy price new and unobtainable used. No biggie, just a bit more awkward.

    Obviously the swingarm pivot goes through the 'cases but it was easier trial fitting without the engine in the way:

    [​IMG]

    Add some frequently fondled titanium M12 x 250mm engine mounting bolts I had intended to use on the 749R:

    [​IMG]

    ...and the 999RS engine settled into it's new home:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #4 Seven4nineR, Oct 28, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
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  5. Awesome work! That bike's gonna be an absolute beast!
     
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  6. Excellent read :upyeah:
     
  7. I've already posted a bit about finding/fitting a front end for this, https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/threads/cat-meet-pigeons.85044/
    So for those familiar you'll probably want to scroll past much of the following...

    Forks.

    They were the one big ticket item I had absolutely no solution for.

    So, like a farmer praying for rain in times of drought, I just kept my head down, went about my business, and tried not to think about what I needed to fall from the sky.

    It's all a balancing act isn't it? What is appropriate for the bike vs what you can afford. I mean, for a marque where many folks prize originality, the bike is an absolute mongrel/bitsa: a 999RS engine in a bastardised 749R frame, with some good bits hanging off the back end....and it's all based around 15 year old mechanicals that won't set the world alight today. It has value to me, I'm not building it to sell it, but you don't really want to spend a shit ton of time and money on something that is ultimately worth bugger all. So as much as I'm an idjit, the idea of spending huge dollars on forks just made no sense....

    ....unfortunately Ducati's association with Ohlins over the years makes them the logical choice. But not even poverty-spec OEM Ohlins aren't cheap and anything of decent race spec is priced to have you contemplating if the ubiquitous gold tubes are solid not just anodized. Some of the better (spec, not price, lol) options would also involve machining the 749R triples, which I would rather avoid.

    Then, manna from heaven: I came across a set of brand new - never fitted, Gen 5 ZX10R Showa BFF forks for (super) cheap from an online surplus store. I instinctively start joining the dots:

    • identical axle size as 749/999/1*98, to suit a spare front wheel/brake rotors I already had
    • identical caliper spacing, to suit my spare 749R 100mm 4 pad calipers
    • smaller fork tubes 50/55mm vs 53/56mm 749R Ohlins triples, so the 749R triples could stay intact with no machining,

    But would people lose their shit over Japanese Showa on a half-decent Italian bike with R/RS DNA? Did I care?

    Ultimately "comparison is the thief of joy" and so it was here: why was I comparing it to other bikes? I just wanted a great front end, and if I could do it without spending a small fortune all the better.

    So for half the price of a set of Ohlins cartridges, let alone full forks, these absolutely brand spanking new 2019 ZX10R Showa BFF rocked up:

    [​IMG]

    The BFF at 50/55mm vs 53/56 749R triples meant machining up some alloy bushes for the top and fitting some alloy 0.5mm shim for the bottom yokes (can barely see it)

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    And here we have it, not something you see every day:

    [​IMG]

    The green caps are a lil' confronting, especially against the 749R plaque, but I'm telling myself the Italian flag is 1/3 green and used on the Tricolor bikes.....how else am I gonna sleep at night?!

    The axle is just a smidge long, which wasn't too hard to sort, I just extended the threading and shortened appropriately:

    [​IMG]

    The other issue is the rotor offset being too narrow for where the calipers sit, not quite clearing the internal guide pegs. No biggie, it looks like the typical 10mm vs 15mm offset issue that occurs with a few wheel/rotor swaps amongst Ducati's.

    I've just mocked it up here with an old cast ally rim I used for wets, but the Brembo "T-drive" rotors will get the nod:

    [​IMG]

    This is about where things stalled for a bit, while I investigated rotor spacers, waited for the actual wheel to rock up, and fiddle-farted around with other stuff.

    I also had a lead on an affordable milling machine which would make things a lot easier. Now, I could continue the actual timeline of events and confuse the hell out of you, but I'll just show how I (eventually) progressed things.....so a few parts/beers/curses flowed under the bridge between the above and the following a few of months later.

    I had a rear wheel sorted for this thing, so I'd been on the look out for a lonely lightweight front wheel to match and found it in the form of a Marchesini forged alloy 1198SP unit. It wasn't perfect aesthetically, which made it absolutely perfect for what is never going to be a show bike...and it's 1kg less in rotating unsprung mass vs the OEM cast wheel above.

    But I'd had no joy chasing up acceptable 5mm rotor spacers (despite offering Jussi 7 vestal virgins for the beautifully machined units he is selling with a set of rotors). Most come without the inner rotor locating spigot, basically just a flat plate, relying on the bolts alone for centering and support. Given this was a track bike with a bit of force going through the front end I wasn't really comfortable with that so decided to have a crack at machining my own.....gulp! Brace yourself lil' lathe, your and my limits are about to be tested!

    Luckily 6061 aluminium is cheap, so I was really only wasting time if I turned up nothing but swarf. From my admittedly beer addled memory we started with a 130mm OD cut-off:

    [​IMG]

    So this is the rim/rotor hub profile I needed to replicate, in positive and negative forms (hope that makes sense) 5mm apart:

    [​IMG]

    Mocking up a roughed out spacer against the wheel/hub:

    [​IMG]

    And the rotor on that:

    [​IMG]

    Getting closer! I just clamped the rotor/spacer combo together to use the rotor as a simple drill guide:

    [​IMG]

    But they're pretty agricultural lookin' things aren't they?

    The milling machine lead had eventually panned out; funnily enough it was near new but had sat wrapped up for the best part of 10 years in the corner of a workshop because it stopped powering up. The kind gent allowed me to do some quick fault finding, enough for me to realise nothing too major was wrong with it, and we arrived at a price where we were both glad to see it loaded onto my trailer.

    I managed to repair it (yup, nothing major) but of course you can't just sit the thing on the floor so then you've another project on your hands making a stand to suit....sigh. She's nothing flash, completely manual, but perfect for my needs:

    [​IMG]

    My tooling is next to nothing and Yootoob helped me make sense of a jumbled "staircase wedge/strap clamp kit" (WTF?) that came with the machine but eventually I get to take a bit of weight/ugliness out of the spacers (if you are a professional machinist look away now!):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    After turning up some axle spacers I thought I was about done, 25mm Ti rotor bolts to replace the OEM 20mm bolts, fit up the calipers and grab a self-congratulatory beer....when I realised the calipers actually sit 5mm further out radially so the pads slightly overlap the rotor....poos!

    The 749R has 8mm caliper spacers as standard fitment on the same size rotor but to use the calipers/rotors with these forks I couldn't see any other way but machine 5mm from the caliper "feet" themselves, a difference of 13mm in the fork mounts. I could machine the forks, but that seemed like a one way street there was no going back down where realistically these calipers were the easiest/cheapest thing to replace if it all turned to custard.

    It's not a decision taken lightly but I figure if I maintain the original "footprint" of the mounting face, keep everything square, and I haven't compromised the stiffness of the caliper or gone anywhere near the pistons/fluid orifices there should be no issue (sound of running footsteps as I head off to check my life insurance...):

    [​IMG]
     
    #8 Seven4nineR, Nov 5, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
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  8. Thanks mate, wish I'd spoken to you a few months back, would have saved a lot of beer and time staring into space!

    Really appreciate the info/input/feedback, this sort of stuff only seems to happen in caves here, with no modified bike publications to speak of anymore, just a couple of generic mags I couldn't be bothered reading on the kahzi. Maybe it's my own fault, not big on social media (who has the time?!) so only seem to meet like minded Oz/NZ folks online somewhere in the ether over Uzbekhistan through the couple of forums I follow.

    But just to summarise for those interested:
    • 2011 -2015 Gen 4 ZX10R has Showa BPF (big piston forks) = usual Japanese 108mm caliper spacing and 310mm rotors.
    • 2016 - 2020 Gen 5 ZX10R has Showa BFF (balance free forks) = Euro-spec with 100mm caliper spacing and 330mm rotors.
    • Both have a 25mm axle, same as 749/999/848/1*98
    So there are some interesting options there to mix and match a nice front end at a non-Ohlins premium depending on where you're at with a build and what parts you have on hand. I boonted myself up the bum not clicking to the larger rotor size, but not sure I would have done things differently: I had wheel/rotors/calipers and a few sets of pads to suit already sitting on the shelf so I don't think I would have done things differently, I suspect the 330mm rotors would be a ball-ache for removing calipers without wide-track triples. FYI, Brembo do a 330mm rotor in their "SuperSport" range (I'm sure others would do similar) that would make the whole thing that much simpler again.
     
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  9. Beautiful work....!!!!
     
  10. Jaysus, time's fun when you're having flies eh? An update s'il vous plait... (Readers Digest condensed version)

    A Suzuki B-King forged ally Galespeed rear wheel was cheap enough to have a crack at adapting it (new -1mm bearings fitted, captive spacers machined, brake rotor carrier machined to suit 999 brake rotor etc):
    Rear internal aexternal spacers.jpg

    The other side was a lot more faffing around having to machine a complete new brake rotor carrier, waaaaaay outside my comfort zone but got there in the end:
    upload_2022-5-26_5-24-27.jpeg
    Ti bolts for the carrier but obviously you need steel bolts for the rotor otherwise the speed sensor is out of a job.

    (apologies to Sev for the wavey Davey Galfer rotor, not often you find something that is light, cheap and good quality so I'm prepared to overlook the aesthetics)
     
    #11 Seven4nineR, May 25, 2022
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
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  11. An old “smashed in transit” 851 Corsa-rep carbon battery holder, was repurposed after repairs to the reg/rec bracket and crushed battery box (don't look too close!):
    Broken reg plate.jpg

    repaired ready.jpg

    Box foam finished.jpg
     
    #12 Seven4nineR, May 25, 2022
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
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  12. A battered set of CDR Motorsport RS-style rad and oil cooler were tidied up enough to be presentable and I ended up about here:
    Wheels fitted June 21.jpg

    Some kevlar braided oil cooler hoses were a surprising weight saving over the more usual stainless braided hose, especially with alloy hose fittings replacing the stainless units.

    The RS crankcases have the O-ring push style oil cooler ports....great if you are trackside and need to work quickly, crap if you are trying to find something off the shelf! But some adapters were knocked up:
    oil cooler and aeroflow fittings.jpg

    Oil cooler push fitting.jpg
    Oil cooler hoses installed.jpg
     
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  13. Thanks Sev...and people wonder why I drink, it's surprising I even come up for air.

    No, someone actually put me onto the Diavel hoses (didn't know about the 1098R, ta!), but the length was all wrong and shortening/re-crimping proved to be problematic. Which lead to discussions with a local hydraulic hose supplier who put me onto this "Aeroflow" stuff, they even have the correct M14 (?) adapter to suit the more usual cooler/crankcase threaded ports. So it's easy peasey to put together and weighs bugger-all compared to the OEM stainless fittings/braided hose.

    Of course you also have the option of loosing your inner chav and exploring the colours of the rainbow....but lets not go there.
     
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  14. For gods sake, I'm trying to cut back on spending on my builds but you make it really hard when you show off parts like that! :heart_eyes::joy: Now I'm thinking I need to look into something along those lines when I eventually get around to fitting the Febur rads on the bike.
     
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  15. I love this build, excellent work :upyeah:
     
  16. Self turned adapters.....not quite sure how it happened, I just poured beer in one end and these come out the other.

    Yes AN-6 is the tubey side, AN-6 being 3/8".

    Interesting AN fitting info, handy if you want to make some adapters of your own:
    "AN stands for Army-Navy. The size specifications were established by the military back in World War II. They were originally used in the aerospace industry.

    AN fittings use a 37 degree flare as the sealing surface."

    "Ducaudi", I like it, the name change has been submitted to management and should be ratified at the next board meeting. What a pity 1 April has come and gone, would have been a good 'un!
     
    #17 Seven4nineR, May 28, 2022
    Last edited: May 28, 2022
  17. C'mon now, spending on these bloody things is like boobs: we're powerless to resist.

    I was lucky with the CDR set, turns out an RS water tank I'd put away for just this occasion won't bloody fit my later Pierobon fairing brace, so it's fortunate the CDR rad has a radiator cap where most Febur/MB RS-style rad's don't. And the cooler has the road style threaded ports.

    If you haven't already it might pay to check: you'll probably be the other way around , threaded ports in your lovely 999R engine but the RS style O-ring's ports in the cooler? Radiator cap fitted to your rad? It gets a little problematic if not and depending on the fairing brace/instrument mount whether an RS water tank will fit.
     
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  18. Ok folks, time to drench a hanky in something nice and cover your mouth and nose, you may well find this next bit stinks...

    I’m not really into cosmetic carbon fibre, but some of the associated weight savings are very attractive. Replacing ABS plastic with carbon is a bit "Meh...": it’s a lot of coin to not save an equivalent amount of weight, right?

    But, replacing heavy steel with carbon fibre? Now that is a very pretty proposition. That steel fuel tank weighs a motza, a carbon tank weighs a fraction of that....but unfortunately is priced at an inverse ratio to weight = big $$$.

    This thing is all about function over form and is a complete bitsa with very questionable, if any, value to anybody else. I'm not building it to sell it, but the old adage of "just 'cos you've spent a lot of money doesn't mean you haven't built a lemon" still applies.

    So how to make a carbon fibre tank for cheap?

    I had a couple of random thoughts providing elevator music in my head:
    • why make an 18L tank when my trackday sessions are only 15min and club races are just 6-8 laps?
    • anti-slosh foam works a treat, but why treat the symptoms (3-4L sloshing around in a 18L tank) when you could treat the cause?
    So I decided to have a crack at making a carbon cover to go over a small sub-tank of a yet to be determined description.

    Starting with a beat up track spare 749r tank:
    dented tank.jpg

    I filled the dents and the godawful tank pad recess, ending up with this:
    Steel tank 1.jpg

    TBH, I completely buggered up the mould making a lot of work for myself but eventually it was usable:
    Mould.jpg

    Rinse and repeat on buggerising the resultant carbon cover, note the ridge-line didn't translate very well onto the mould so was sanded out before making the cover. In tidying up a lot of pinholes and small voids I had the brain wave of painting the inside of the cover to work with that softer surface (epoxy is frikin' hard!), as sanding a concave surface is surprisingly difficult. My brain wave was more of a brain fart: the release agent, despite a gazillion layers, did bugger all and the paint came away with the cover hence the "I have a leprosy" look (de-buggerising repairs underway below): Tank cover 1.jpg
    Tank cover 2.jpg
     
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  19. Righto, that's the ugly cover basically sorted, what ugly thing can I wack underneath it?

    With some educated guesswork I took a punt on being able to adapt a carbon Suzuki RMZ450 I'd spied for cheap. Turns out I wasn't too far off the mark when initially sizing it up, seen here against my 749R:
    RH side.jpeg

    The prospect of the wee RMZ450 fuel pump leaning out the RS engine at full noise had me sizing up the 749/999 fuel pump assembly:
    tank pump.jpeg

    There's a bit of work to make it fit though:
    pump flange 1.jpeg

    Carbon fibre raw materials aren't too expensive, but any decent thickness of manufactured carbon plate is drug money. So I basically "squeegeed" about 30 layers of carbon fibre/epoxy together, creating a thick carbon block, spun it up on the lathe, bonded in the fixings to make something resembling the OEM tank pump flange, then bonded that in place on the RMZ tank:
    pump flange 2 flipped.jpeg

    pump fitted.jpeg

    I had to "cut 'n shut" the square end (-20mm) to position it within the cover and I fitted a spare filler I had, basically sandwiching the cover (with a gasket) between the filler and tank:
    tank and cover.jpg

    Subtank fitted to cover 1.jpg
     
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