A Blow To Dickensian Employers

Discussion in 'Speakers Corner' started by bradders, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. I doubt it. Or at least I hope you're wrong, given the current climate of fear and under-investment amongst European nations in their military. There is an economic rationale for pooling resources, but I'm not so sure a European army is workable: an army needs a master, and the EU will struggle to agree on anything given all the political ties and divided loyalties that exist. And the unwieldy EU decision-making process. Just look at UN peace-keeping!

    Despite the poor funding of the UK's military in recent years, we have such a long history and deep capability in our military that I think we will continue to punch our weight - even if not in terms of equipment and manpower, our expertise is highly respected and influential. I think in military circles, expertise is the currency of influence. And that extends to the obvious security capabilities and know-how that the EU also wants to hold onto.

    NATO is still the dominant organisation in military terms, though we'll have to see what happens post-Trump. I hope it continues that way...
     
  2. America owns Europe silly
     
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  3. But China owns America :confuse:
     
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  4. Yes quite...

    I've been thinking about this every time I see Trump Tweet about China's "raping" of the USA economy... it's going to be interesting watching all this unfold!
     
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  5. This is closest I can get
     
  6. The Reich Awakens?
     
  7. I'm going to boycott my local chinese, that will teach them.
     
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  8. Yeah but if you owe the bank a tenner you are in trouble, if you owe the bank a million the bank is in trouble.
     
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  9. It's a bit like that old saying.

    Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, Give a man a bank and he can rob everyone.
     
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  10. How to rob a bank
     
  11. A bit of insight into Paul Mason's way of thinking here on the Labour Party: sorry @bradders and @Loz that this is Brexit-oriented but the point about Paul Mason arose in the discussion here...

    For those interested, Paul Mason has a blog on Medium called "Mosquito Ridge" - Mosquito Ridge – Medium - that you might enjoy if you like his analysis and politics. Lots on the problem with globalization, macroeconomics etc - not a light read, but my admiration for the guy just went up another notch!

    Defend democracy. End chaos and secrecy in the Brexit process
    Speech to CLASS Think Tank 2016
    Brexit is a disaster. It didn’t have to be: there’s a perfectly justified case for Britain – already half out of a Europe – to step back, stay in the Single Market, go for a Norway or Swiss-style deal, listen to what is rational about the complaints about the economic impact of migration, and reject what is irrational.

    But that’s not what we’ve done.

    Brexit is a disaster because it’s disorderly, chaotic and carried out by a Conservative government with no mandate and no idea what to do.

    Theresa May is like a drowning woman, thrown back on her reflexes. And she has only one reflex left: attack social justice – think grammar schools; attack the poor – think benefit cuts; and attack the NHS, using cuts and privatization. And now, attack democracy and the rule of law.

    Since the High Court decision, and those appalling attacks in the newspapers, people have been asking: what do Jonathan Harmsworth and Rupert Murdoch want? What would make them stop?

    The answer is simple: they want Britain ruled by a xenophobic mob, controlled by them. They want a Labour Party controlled by them.

    What they want in charge are people like Jacob Rees Mogg.

    Don’t laugh at Jacob. Before he became an MP, Jacob set up Somerset Capital Management. It’s a small fund – only £7bn. In its mission statement it says:

    “with the exception of the legal boundaries, we make no claim to using environmental, social and governance concerns as tenets of ethics in the fashioning of investment returns…”

    “the end of our engagement, unless specified in client mandates, is the preservation of client investment returns, which often is, but may not be consistent with a social or moral agenda.”

    That could be the mission statement of the Tories after Brexit: a rule free environment for the rich, in which an unelected government with no mandate gets to rewrite the relationship between the citizen and the state.

    Meanwhile people are being shouted at in the streets. Told to go home. Who incited them? Amber Rudd incited them. Liam Fox with his determination to use three million EU migrants as a “bargaining chip”. Boris Johnson incited them.

    That’s what Brexit has unleashed. And voting Brexit was an honourable and understandable position; destroying the judiciary, the constitution and poisoning public life against migrants is not.

    But Brexit is only a symptom of a bigger problem.

    Globally the whole economic model has stopped working.

    Freemarket capitalism is broken. Wages: flat. Growth: dire. Productivity; flatlining. Don’t take it from me, take it from Mark Carney – who told the G20 in Shanghai this year that, yes, if they want it, the central banks can pump more money in. But after that we need a new model.

    A brilliant insight. The only thing is, the rich are so addicted to the utopia of free markets, zero social or moral or environmental obligations – that they cannot bring themselves to imagine what that new model could be.

    But we can.

    In my book Postcapitalism, I predicted that if we don’t find an alternative to neoliberalism it will destroy globalisation.

    That’s what’s happening now.

    The alternative is: preserve globalisation, the multilateral system, the IMF, WTO, Paris Climate Change Treaty, exhangeable currencies – but change the economic model.

    So that banks exist to lend to businesses; so that innovation leads to secure, decent high-skilled jobs – not parasitic firms like Uber. So that, when you walk into a fast food cafe, and the server smiles at you, you know it’s because they’re happy – not because the enture shift will get its bonus deducted if one person looks sad.

    That’s what Labour Party is.

    It is the desire for a capitalism that is more humane; where globalisation works for poor people in rich countries, not rich people – and corrupt people – in poor countries.

    And that’s all it is. Yes me and you can bang tables in the pub over Israel-Palestine, nuclear weapons, criminalising sex work or decriminalising it. But the party must be a respectful alliance

    I wish we hadn’t had the leadership challenge. But now it’s over I genuinely want to forget the arguments and emnities that it stirred up.

    So what should we do?

    We have to be honest with people. We cannot sabotage or ignore the Brexit referendum vote.

    Because want to govern Britain: the SNP doesn’t; the Libdems and the Greens can’t.
     
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  12. So be open, upfront and declare everything before you start negotiations.

    Simplistic, idealistic and utter useless.

    IMO :)

    And the govt has a mandate: leave the EU. It's quite simple, that's what the bite remain/leave said and delivered.

    I really don't know how anyone cannot understand that. :)
     
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  13. There really is nothing to negotiate in the first instance. Leaving is leaving. You're either in the EU or you are not. There aren't degrees of leaving or types of non-membership.
    We withdraw absolutely, cease membership payments and revert to WTO rules the same as the rest of the world. We don't even need to invoke Article 50. We simply leave. What kind of relationship with have with European countries in the future will evolve in the future.
     
  14. I'm sorry but anyone trying to tell me that the answer to runaway corporatocracy and exploitation is remaining in the EU ... is wasting their time.

    I'll leave you with a simple but self-evident logic chain:
    Corporations don't like national borders and they don't like marketplace competition - these both interfere with profitability.
    The EU is all about stifling competition and I think we all know how they feel about national borders.

    Now, connect the dots.

    Are we there yet?
     
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  15. And while we're at it, why stop at the EU? Lets dispense with the phrase "globalised economy" or "globalisation". It is corporatisation and a corporatised economy.
    The phenomenon is being sold as some sort of pan-global emancipation of the masses. In fact, its the opposite. Its politically facilitated corporate hegemony. The EU is the most transparent example because with the inconvenience of democracy removed it is corporate business which jerks the strings of the bureaucratic institutions of Europe which have replaced national democracy, and does so flagrantly in plain sight, yet it is the anti-capitalists who parrot the imagined virtues of the EU most loudly. It really is extraordinary.
     
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  16. It's great how you like to amuse us, or wind us up, by hypothesising ultra-extreme 'car crash' hard Brexit options. Just hurl the UK off a cliff and don't worry about it until we reach the rocks below.

    Meanwhile back in the real world there are multitudes of issues to address, each of which offers several options for a way forward. It is understandable though that the government must be aware of the possibility that its negotiations will fail utterly and achieve no objectives at all; in that event they will have to pretend that that was their intention all along, so they already need to be preparing the ground for that contingency. To do that they need some useful idiots - any idea where some could be found?
     
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  17. You are too modest by half, Pete. Claim your birthright!
     
  18. Repeat: there is no "hard" "soft" "extreme" "lite" or any other qualified interpretation of Brexit. We are either a member of the EU or we are not. We have voted to leave. We will leave. We will cease to be a member of the EU. All of it. There is nothing to negotiate. There is no cliff. (Well there is. But its not the UK that's heading for it. We're getting off the bus).
     
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  19. You can repeat this guff a hundred more times if you like - and you probably will. But that still does not make it true.

    It is a well-established principle of propaganda that if you repeat the same lies consistently again and again for long enough, a portion of people will be credulous enough to start believing them even if they consists of wild, unsupported assertions. You might even start believing them yourself. This practice has been revived recently by Mr Trump ("crooked Hillary") and Mr Farage ("the EU is undemocratic") with considerable success.
     
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  20. You can repeat this guff a hundred more times if you like - and you undoubtedly will because your contempt for people who refuse to subscribe to Pete-think emanates from you in waves and you cannot help yourself. But that does not make it true.

    It doesn't make for a very successful form of propaganda either. Wild, unsupported assertions mixed with sour disdain for those who don't swallow them whole wins more support for the opposition than your own side. It is a well established principle of propaganda that sneering and insulting doesn't persuade people to accept your version of reality. As recent events ought to have shown but clearly have not. Keep it up.
     
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