A Blow To Dickensian Employers

Discussion in 'Speakers Corner' started by bradders, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. Lightning, I was quoted completely out of context... that is why I replied to that comment, obviously not by you.

    This is what I posted.

    "Much the same, price work when building houses.. if they did this, the work ethic would change and house prices would increase. Last time I check, It's poor pay if you are lazy but good pay if you work hard. My brother did it, then he had a bad back, so had to go back on the books and work on an hourly rate."

    The whole post was simplistic (that part of a whole post, taken out of context) and I still stand by it. It is not complete bollocks! So I will agree to disagree with that post.
    If it was complete bollocks that would make me a liar.

    I was quoted as," if you are lazy you won't earn" , which is true or "if you work hard you will earn great money." The latter part, is not what I wrote!

    Those who like those posts that support people being rude to each other on here, suggest to me that the topic is more important than the shared interest we all have and why we joined the forum... pretty silly as most people meet. These media reports are sensational things, with a certain provocative angle, that cause this kind of reaction.

    It's conquer and divide, upsetting people.

    I've seen my own main business sector cast in a bad light on the news, but it's the minority they report and they don't give a balanced view. About the budgets, cuts..

    It's the small businesses (in my sector) that (I know of) that out perform the larger ones in the quality of service they provide and staff morale. Yet it seems recently, the modern way is too push small business out, in this sector.

    Ducati forum disclaimer: This may not be true in all cases, subject to variables. It's my view not fact.

    As Chizel said going off topic, as many have.
    It was in keeping with the topic in the post as a whole.
    This whole topic is going off topic :)

    If we can go in circles, boring.... which is hard without 30min answers.

    What is great money? even though I never said that! National wage is what? 26K.
    I personally agree that's not "Great" money to me. That's my perspective though.
    I know this is not on topic with the original post (which was a poverty pay)
    but we are digressing here.

    "great" money is 100K+ (to me or more in fact more) but that's the top 1 to 4%
    Can we all earn that? I don't think 26K is good money, but as a bench mark at this time... it is what it is.

    Anything else, is what individuals interpretation of that they consider good, bad..

    The point is if you work, meaning you are being productive you will < bad choice of word, can earn good money, new build. This is to true (at times anyway).

    If you google national average.. It lists jobs and on average, construction jobs are around, slightly lower or above the national average.

    Those in management are higher. Of course some brickies, chippies, sparkies, plumbers earn more or less.(some earn cash too) The median average,is based on the most occuring. How many work hard... long hours, how many are on the books on hourly pay. Not accurate to suggest this is the average on new build, price work.

    I posted about new build! Not about working in Dubai or odd jobs for people, or even building one or two houses.

    I too have been around...

    I worked on multi million pound engineering projects from the day I left school.
    At just 21, I was our company team leader on site (obviously just the jobs I was on).
    I had guys in their 40's working under me. 1m our end of projects 26m+ for well known companies.

    Age is not a precursor for success, but I will agree (with age comes experience which is almost everything, assuming it's the right kind, but specific experience is not gained while not working or not doing the task specific, other experiences that can help might be).
    I have learnt so much through my varied occupations and roles and I am still learning.
    I know many things people I've worked with that are still doing the same thing, have not but I'm not up to speed with the technology they use now. I did not need to do pipe work for 10 years to be good at it, some guys are limited by their own limitations. We all have them.

    I eventually after working for another company, moved South and got a company car and desk and spec'd these type of jobs and other technical solutions.

    Before going self employeed, where I was hired for 11/2 times the pay of the engineers... some were very experienced guys, the type who taught me when I was an apprentice.

    Gradually moved into to domestic work (back on the tools)
    I had no money in the bank (as had ploughed it all into my property)
    So had to sub contract to a local builder at first, who made me an unofficial site supervisor after while. Which felt like a step back but (kept ploughing money into my property)

    Even today I can't finance that type of (industrial) work I did for years, with my own money or borrow, Cash flow. So in my eyes I will never be "rich". Rich in my eyes is determined by interpretation. Which in my case, stems from the car racing paddock and people I know. Which some people could not comprehend but I know those people too.

    There is good and bad at both at both ends of the spectrum.
    The middle are often the worse I find, but maybe because they resent trying so hard, be penalised so much and being resented for it. I don't know.

    People could mistake me for being rich, but it's all borrowed money.

    I'm not even comfortable, which some people would role their eyes at.... but, even though I do have some spare money each month it's accounted for 10x over. In 1 mins time I could have an issue and be bankrupt by next payday. Had one scare last week, 1 last month and a couple that could have been an issue in the last 12 months. One is off the back of Austerity, which effects my main income.

    We even juggle child care to save money and borrowed our tax money to fix our boiler, you would not think that if you new me superficially.

    "Just had a call 09.30, now our income has dropped"

    It's not quite the same as having a mortgage that depends on a modest income.
    I historically have always worked on the basis of keeping monthly costs down, so we could pay the bills with just one of us working...

    Until we took the plunge. Almost 6 or 7 years ago at 29. I got a loan, sold my race car and bikes (which I only used when the money was there) never borrowed money for a depreciating asset. Got a deposit together, using my house as collateral, with some interviews with the bank, a medical and very strict contracts from the bank.

    I borrowed 1m, at one point I owed near double that. I have low ration of capital in the various things I have on the go, so the risk is high and long term. I don't have the cash flow to change this and I am bound by certain restrictions.

    To digress,

    I could not earn, engineers money when I did domestic projects (direct) due to foc time running round sorting problems, time off in the recession in between projects. Had 6 guys working for me. Hard work was the hassle and the hours and the customers, time vs earning not great < still better than a low paid job.

    I earnt that kind of money working 8 till 4 as a subby though, with no one working for me.

    I was happy with that income time vs earning. I also remember at that time, there was a shortage of brickies in the paper and they were making good money. It was about the time, they were calling out for trades people in Canada and offering good money for that too.

    All the guys I knew/know working on site earned good money (not great money) it was actually quite rare when they had no work. Obviously working out the ground is problematic and other aspects of the build, being held up etc..

    Something I don't (choose not to) get involved with but I am aware of. I know annually they still earnt on average good money.... if compared to the national average. considerably more.

    My brother is still doing this now. He too has re-invested money in house by extending it. If he wanted he could remortgage and borrow, if I were him I'd get my mrs running a child care business but each to their own. Then they would have more income and they could think about other things.... choices. They choose having a life.

    I've worked for builders, property developers and the public.
    None of which refers to that one line I was quoted on.

    I paid to have a shell built on one of my renovations (which I was going to do with guys I know) but the time it would take to do it, round other work... so I put it out to tender. Then, I knew the cost rather than having that to worry about it in my budget to complete the job. I took that hit.

    I was lucky (choices I made over the years) as I'd got myself into the position where I had the cash flow to do it, I think we remortgaged at that time, as we had another income... but I am now not talking about the same things I was quoted about and this is not reflected in the national averages for construction either. I know several guys who do this in fact most who did work for me.

    There still is not much money in renovations I do, but there is technique to it.. buy the house as cheap as poss, with the opportunity to add value as cheap as poss. Based on others in the area that show that difference in current price and resale value. You can't pay a builder to do everything. Really needs to be primary address (keep overheads low). Keep it more than 12 months, factor in stamp, fees, mortgage... it's not a good living but ok as a secondary, when not wasting money on rent. Dedication though, which I am losing.

    Last one, I found a house with potential for a driveway in an area (high street) with limited parking. Did a few other bits, because people are funny when they look at what you paid and what you asking 12 month later, they do silly things like try and work out what you spent (which is irrelevant). A loft conversion on a house, that cost 18 or 28K might add way more resale value as house goes from 2 to 3 or 4 bedroom.

    Same as stone build large property with a driveway on the high steet, it is what it is...

    Most wealthy people seem to not want to have that work carried out, the hassle, it costs a fortune to hire a renovation magazine type company that will undertake it all while you working in China or where ever. Some wealthy people will buy a place and live somewhere else while they have the work carried out, but I can't afford the house/cash flow to do that. I can't work in two places once either so delegating is a cost as it time out of work..
    When you are really fussy about finish, stone and reclaimed imperial bricks...(period property) type of gates. Some house buyers don't have the vision to see what can be done, but will like it when it's finished, they see the value. Some just want the perfect property but won't pay for it... it's risky, with house prices etc. I'd prefer to affordable housing but it's not the spec I work to and would lose money.

    I do not know any guys my age or older. Who have not managed to do ok from building work, unless they were addicted gamblers, and or heavy drinkers. Some go bust from bad payment but I started taking deposits and staged payments, paid my wages and suppliers first. I know the builders I worked for would have at least 80% of all the money by the time the walls were plastered.

    I've known two guys (who did work for me) who did exactly the same job and had two completely different standards of living. One lost his licence twice for drink driving and used a unreliable van, good plaster though. The other had tidy VW T5, Ducati, MX bike, good house and holidays, use to take his mrs out for decent meals.

    These were one man and a van types, who may work with a few lads they know as a team.

    Me personally when I was doing what I did, I'd have been better working in Herts, Beds, Bucks affluent areas, as I took on small jobs, bespoke work. Again this is still not what I was referring too but shows the diversity. I had to evolve, when options were taken away.

    That is why I do my own renovations, my work is higher spec, more design focus rather than practical (but limited by budget) and people don't pay for it unless they have that kind of disposable income.

    I've sold houses for highest price for that type of property since I stopped working for people. The trouble is, I can't do it quickly because I have to earn the money to pay for the work. So I do one at a time and live in them.

    I know plenty builders (braver than me) who have built houses. Who live in a house they've built all paid for, some 500k+ properties. In fact my mortgage adviser builds houses, he said he works on a build 3 to pay for one basis. I guess these are specific to area and low volume, high spec.

    But, I've never said great money!
    I don't think you can earn "great" money as a business owner unless you upscale.
    In fact I think it's nigh on impossible in todays times, unless you are really good with tech, or entrepreneurial, finance, law etc.

    I wish I was. I have managed to do ok, out of engineering and construction but I had to upscale and diversify, and I proud of my achievements but wary I could be in the crap at any moment.

    I got out of building work to some extent, it was a hard way to earn < hence work hard, and work hard on new build can still pay more than regular paye jobs, despite problems but I did not want to do that. I'm not a builder. I'm an engineer that worked and got into the building trade as it was easier to finance and get started in.

    I'm not so healthy now, I'm not sure if it's genetic or stress or what.
    As of now, 2016/2017. I think being a small cog in a big machine, i.e. a project manager for a big company. Is better than being a big cog in a small machine, i.e. a company owner of a small business. I reserve the right to change that view as I do evolve and my views have changed every time I get do something new.

    Red tape = running costs and other laws, restrict reinvestment. It will take me 2 to 3 years before I pay off one loan. Which I had to sell everything to aquire and put everything on the line to secure. That was a 10 year loan, that gave me a deposit to borrow a much larger sum of money over 25 years. Off the back of that (5 years later)
    I borrowed more over 35 years. Scary.

    I have no idea, with stamp duty etc and other rule changes, how I can use that new income to make more money and therefore take on more people. Normally I'd sell my house and move but I plan to stay here until kid(s) leave.

    It's not easy. I am not going to expand my main business because we've had too many problems securing contracts and I don't need that worry, which could see me lose everything. Had a scare over Christmas... that we might lose 50% of our income but we are back to 95%.

    I am considering getting back into engineering, but I'd have to retrain.. and I end up training for years and not sure I can be part of the big business world again. It's all BS to me now, lean process, change management...small business is getting just as bad. Meetings for the sake of it. Which makes me think about just living on a boat with a wood burner.

    I don't have any answers as I said. I would love everyone to be in a good place in life. I employ people on attitude. I appreciate those who do their bit for me and we look after them.

    To me, where I am lots of decisions in central government seem to negatively effect the small business, which provides upwards of 90% of the GDP It would seem. Yet, if you believe the media, big businesses that provide all this "glass door" culture seem to get all the breaks, tax etc. Some avoid, fail to pay etc...

    Differences of opinion and as Chiz say's going round in circles (as always with these kinds of post and different peoples life experiences)

    But most definitely not complete bollocks or even remotely ridiculous.
    Which I find a bit dis pointing coming from someone who I considered a mate but I'm a big boy.

    As an adult I except, the posts I write are perhaps worded poorly and open to misinterpretation and people are entitled to a different view.

    That goes both way though.
    I don't let people treat me with less respect than I give them, so can only assume it was personal and which case apologised... as I never intend to offend. It's not worth falling out over f'all. Very little we say or do on here will change political decisions. So it's pretty cheap to put that first.
    #161 Not Carl Fogarty, Jan 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  2. You have Corbyn ( as much as left of him, bearing in mind he was a Leaver until party said no..). Unelectable. Hence politicians behave the way they do.
  3. Can't stand Corbyn! I have nobody! As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a loyal one-party man, more a pragmatist. Call me a liberal if you like, but there are liberals in all parties. I have no home. Sob.
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  4. Open primaries plus some power of recall. Make our elected representatives more accountable to their voters than the party machine.
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  5. yip doing ok noob. not much to add to the threads at the mo. but still enjoying the johny come lately aspect to em.
    BBC misreporting. old hat. if yer interested go look for "the bbc lie factory"
    spice girls. should of been a given and discussed many times on here.
    dickens brexit. one and the same in my view.
    still watching tho.
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  6. It's impossible to unify a whole country,jeezus it's hard enough to unify a whole family.
    If you needed an example look at Outliars post,he thinks she's not following through with her promise,but there will be plenty who think she is...that is a difference of opinion,neither view is based on fact,only the view holders interpretation of what they see/hear/read..
    There is no such thing as a Hard or Soft Brexit: these terms were not used on the ballot paper,it was Remain in the EU or Leave the EU.
    The questions of what were the voters preferred terms of a possible exit,or what trading relationship the voter would like us to have with Europe after the vote,were not asked on the ballot paper.
    Hard and Soft are fictional descriptions probably invented by those whose view did not sway the majority of those who could be bothered to vote,i.e, the Remainers.Just like "populism",is now an insult directed at those who would like the views of the majority to be heard.
    (You'd think that having a contented majority would be a good thing,no?...not now...if you are white working class and you don't agree that minorities should be given everything that you cannot possibly get,then you must be racist...)
    They would like to water down the democratic decision of the voters to vote leave as much as possible,but Theresa May has quite clearly indicated,"Brexit means Brexit/We will be leaving the European Union/etc,all the way through,so I do not see any vaccillation or changes of heart/muddled thinking at all.(And I'm not a fan-she should have invoked Article 50 the day she took office,and shown the spineless turncoat Cameron in his true colours).
    All this Hard/Soft/accusations of muddled thinking/criticism of the Government nonsense is peddled by Remainers,and shouted by their MSM boot lickers.
    The Remoaners and the MSM are pissed off because the voters didn't swallow their propaganda before the Referendum,and the Government are keeping the chest-puffing,self-important MSM out of the loop by not revealing anything to them.In exactly the same way as Trump is sticking two fingers up at the MSM by keeping them out of the loop and just using Twitter.
    Personally,(other views are available and just as valid),I don't think politicians or Governments should reveal ANYTHING to the media unless it's in the form of a written statement,and that written statement should be available in full and to everybody at exactly the same time,so the MSM cannot cherry-pick,take words out of context,wrongly interpret,anything.
    Any questions from anyone whoever they are should be put in writing and answered in writing,no personal interviews or giving the MSM chance to ambush politicians or make them look stupid.
    The principled politicians of the past,the Enoch Powells,Norman Tebbitts,the Frank Fields and Dennis Skinners,are/were vilified or sidelined because their views did/do not fit the liberal Establishment narrative.
    They stated their opinions no matter how unpopular,and paid the price for it at the altar of the MSM and those who unquestioningly swallow the bullshit.
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  7. I worked in a factory for 10 years. Started as a temp on £5.22 an hour as I couldn't move my previous business. I got a full time labouring job, then a machine operator, then team leader and finished as production manger on £35k at the end. Only managed that for a year as my boss spoke to me the wrong way one day. I swore that no-one would ever talk to me like that again and told him if he ever did, he'd be rag dolled about the office...

    So, to answer your question, no, I couldn't do it for 20 or 30 years.

    I have only to answer to my customers and I'm in the happy position that if I don't like them, I don't do any more work for them. Just in the same way I had an issue with a material supplier who decided to leave me high and dry after a product failure. Net result is that they've lost more than £50k in sales last year from me. I have a new supplier that I'm delighted with.

    Am I special, no. Not any more than anyone else. I think small business owners are comfortable with risk and acceptable loss. It doesn't mean they're good businessmen. I'm also in the happy position that I enjoy what I do and have been told that I'm good at it. Generally, being paid is a fair indication that I've done a good job and repeat business is a better one that the customer thinks they're getting value for money, decent service and are working with someone that understands what they need.

    The problem is for many managers in many businesses, is that they've crawled their way to the top of the pile regardless of whether they didn't make milk monitor at school. Generally, they're pretty ineffective as managers, because they have no sympathy or regard for the people working below them and they can't manage the people above them.

    I have a few stories in my limited experience of just how poorly employees can be treated. I was openly told I had to manipulate my staff to get results and if I wasn't comfortable with that, I wouldn't be a good manager....

    I'll stop there, I can feel my dander getting up.
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  8. Love it: "Theresa May has quite clearly indicated Brexit means Brexit" - and that means what exactly ;-)

    The remainers name-calling doesn't offend me, as I'm sure Brexiter doesn't offend you! We just differ in opinions. Let's not end up just shouting louder though: my dad, embarrassingly, used to do that; he was English and my mum Chinese. In Hong Kong he'd start speaking louder to my chinese relatives, an hilariously even in a slight Chinese-sounding accent, in some subconscious attempt to make them understand. It didn't work then... bless him, I loved him, and I joke about it with deep affection for the man but it was funny!
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  9. It means following the mandate: the UK out of the EU. :)
  10. I can't nor wouldn't call you anything because I don't know which way you voted,my friend.
    The comment was to illustrate that we are divided already,Theresa May didn't do it,nor can she do it,because our difference of opinion already existed.
    Brexit means Brexit?
    The EU said no cherry picking allowed,so take away any of the following and you take away the rest.
    They said it,I didn't.
    Free Movement of Goods
    Free Movement for Workers
    Right of Establishment and Freedom to Provide Services
    Free Movement of Capital

    Cameron,Osbourne,Gove,Johnson,Uncle Tom Cobley and all stated,on recorded television,that in the event of a vote to leave we would be leaving the Single Market,(Freedom of Goods).
    So,if we are leaving one,(and everyone said we would),we are leaving all.In other words,Brexit.
    No Hard,no Soft,no muddling,no obfuscation...no possibility of misinterpretation.
    Now,if for instance the EU said,"we'll let you sell UK cars in Europe without tariff if we can sell German/French cars in the UK without tariff,that has nothing to do with Brexit.
    That would be a negotiation in order to establish a trading relationship between two trading areas,the EU and the UK.
    One contract with the EU has expired,and they will be negotiating a new one with us.
    What they are not doing is renegotiating an existing contract,which the MSM,the EU, and the Remaining supporting establishment would like to think is going to happen.
    And as clearly stated,your view is as valid as mine,but based on the evidence,(the wording on the ballot paper,the pre-ballot statements of the Politicians that govern us,and those of Juncker and Merckel),it was/is pretty clear to me what Brexit means.
    What everyone is bitching about is what the post-leaving-EU new contract will look like.
    May etc cannot and will not say what they are hoping to achieve with the new contract,except that they will do their best for the country.
    At the very least,trade will continue under WTO rules,(thats international law,the EU nor the UK can over ride them).
    At the very best,the EU will come to it's senses,sack the Tusk/Juncker spiteful children,and let pragmatists get round the table and thrash out the things that suit both parties.
    Mutual trade is what prevents wars and grows economies.Wise heads will prevail,and when the dust settles we'll have a good relationship with the EU.
    And bearing in mind the amount that the EU sell to us,and their antipathy towards trade deals with the rest of the world,the final agreement will probably be some sort of hybrid agreement that allows free movement of goods but not people,visa free travel but not free movement,(border controls so that undesirables are not admitted),and some sort of reciprocal welfare/health service deal.
    Of course you might disagree with that and you are welcome,but none of us can say,"I told you so",until it happens.
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  11. Yes okay, I get the joke! It's a journey into the unknown, however you look at it.

    And as this thread shows, rather a lot of what Brexit means was left wide open to interpretation. It's more akin to a religious debate than an economic or political one!

    Sorry to the OP, too much Brexit talk but all roads lead to Brexit at the moment!
  12. Fair enough. Honestly, it all boils down to trust at the end of the day.
  13. Yes, because staying in the EU meant no journey into the unknown - in fact, no unknowns at all!

    Remind me, the crash of 2008 - that happened before we joined the EU, right? Or was it after? In which case, we all saw it coming?

    Dammit! I'm so confused since we "left Europe"!
  14. Well @Outliar as the OP I can clearly and categorically say that it was intended to poke fun at the corporatism and capilatlism greed that exists here in the 'educated' U.K. Just as much as the opium farmer in the outlands of Afghanistan.

    Brexit has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
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  15. Sorry my friend, but this makes no sense to me - now we're onto the subprime lending-based financial meltdown that started in the USA...

    The metaphor I would choose is probably the p!issing in or out of the tent one.
  16. On that we agree :)
  17. I'm sorry, you're a little late to the party and may not be aware of the forum history on this issue.

    The Brexit thread we had explored the idea that by leaving the EU, we would be "leaping into the unknown". I used to counter this by explaining that in economic terms, every single day is a leap into the unknown, Brexit or no Brexit. Now, whenever someone plays the "leap into the unknown" card, I am prone to uncontrolled bouts of mockery.

    I consider this to be a character flaw in my part :)
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  18. cant argue with that.:smileys:
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  19. Thanks for the history lesson ;-)

    Consider my forum homework marked "Could do better" ha ha!

    I think I'll resist a semantic or metaphorical argument, I know when to get my coat :D
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  20. Germany runs the EU, everyone knows that. Germany wants an EU army,everyone knows that. Germany controlling an army that controls Europe, is this the third part of the trilogy?