okidoki all those commentating on the fake trump news thread, here's the latest but probably the least damaging piece i have seen from this crowd. debunk it for me.apologies for the terrible title, no bad thing or i would post more from this site. http://indyref2.scot/bbc-scotland-and-fake-brexit-news
I saw varadkar on the tv over the weekend and he explained it as this In order to allow brexit of somekind and keep northern ireland as part of the U.K. staying in the customs union would allow this. Asked for his explanation of the backstop he said it would a joint agreement between the eu and the U.K. so that if and when the U.K. did actually leave, Northern Ireland would remain in the customs union and could only be released back to the U.K. when both sides agreed, he did however add that it would never be released. The whole point of Brexit was that we had a clean break from ANY control from the eu, and deal with them in the same way they would any other non eu country, what May is offering is little more than lets pick the worst option and choose that. Labour over the weekend have had thornberry when asked what would Labour do different, was unable to give a straight answer and Starmer contradicted Labours view by saying it could be stopped, which is different to what Corbyn has said.
I know a lot of discussion re Brexit is over the 'Irish problem' and the 'backstop' but one could argue that the 6 counties that form NI and which the British Govt insists are part of the UK are only part of the UK as a result of a negotiation over the independence of Ireland from the UK almost 100 years ago. Geographically, and arguably territorially, NI is part of Ireland. The British Govt at the time wanted to hold onto those counties because the industry based there was important to the Brit Govt, especially shipbuilding. Here we are now, 100 years later, and the tables have turned. The Brit Govt wants independence from another power and once again the 6 counties are the bone of contention. But this time there's no strategic reason to hold onto them, only a weak constitutional argument they form part of the UK, but unfortunately the May and Brit Govt is beholden to the the votes of the 10 DUP MPs. A party who represent a small minority of the population in NI and who are led and steered by someone who's not even an MP - Arlene Foster. If May didn't have to rely upon the DUP, how would Brexit negotiations have progressed then? Don't forget there's not even a sitting local govt in NI to act as a voice for the people, because Foster and the DUP won't sit down with the other parties to get the NI Assembly back up and running. To my mind, the sticking point is the DUP. Sure, Varadkar and the Irish Govt don't want a hard border again, nor does anyone in NI, and it goes against the terms of the Belfast Agreement. But it's Arlene Foster (who is not an elected MP) and the DUP who are saying 'no, we will not accept any treatment for NI that's different to the rest of the UK. Oh and by the way May, don't forget we control the shots.' The British media loves to portray the Irish Govt as the the problem here when really it's not. It's an historical issue that was never properly resolved when independence was granted and which is being used by a bunch of antediluvian right wing individuals to have their 15mins of fame.
Here we are now, 100 years later, and the tables have turned. The Brit Govt wants independence from another power and once again the 6 counties are the bone of contention. But this time there's no strategic reason to hold onto them, only a weak constitutional argument they form part of the UK, but unfortunately the May and Brit Govt is beholden to the the votes of the 10 DUP MPs. i think there may be more to this than we think. and you potentially have more assets than is generally recognized. there's oil off the west coast that a unified Ireland may be able to lay claim to plus v,important and strategic shipping lanes to consider.
The U.K government represents the best interests of the U.K citizens. It is not for the UK government to look after,or even consider,the interests of the Irish UNLESS it benefits the UK. As selfish as that sounds,this is what the EU and Varadkar are doing: they are only interested in the EU ,and don't give a fig for the democratic decision of the majority of the UK electorate,(that could be bothered to vote),to leave the EU and all of it's institutions. This is where Macron's statement about nationalism falls apart.He is a nationalist,except that he considers the EU to be the nation. For example,EU tariffs are imposed to protect the producers and manufacturers within the EU.(Juncker etc go even further down the nationalist path by making sweetheart deals that benefit their own countries at the expense of others in the EU). May etc have given the EU & Ireland a voice in these faux-negotiations that they have no right to use. Instead of representing the UK,they have represented the EU against the best interests,(as expressed by the majority of voters/yadayada) of the United Kingdom. And to add further salt to the wound,the EU are not even abiding by the articles written in their own treaties: Article 8 of the Lisbon Treaty "1. The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation. 2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the Union may conclude specific agreements with the countries concerned. These agreements may contain reciprocal rights and obligations as well as the possibility of undertaking activities jointly. Their implementation shall be the subject of periodic consultation". Should the UK ever leave the EU,(I doubt it will with any of these politicians in the Houses but I hope public sentiment regarding the loss of democracy will be expressed in such a manner that the subsequent government will be elected on a solemn promise to do so),then the UK will be a,"neighbouring country",and will expect a relationship as described in the above article.
The N.I. issue has always been a technical one and not a political one but has always been the eu's last resort to stop us leaving so has been made into a political issue. In regards to the independence of North Ireland and possibly being part of Ireland instead of the U.K. , like Scotland and the U.K. itself who have already had their independence votes, at some point Wales and Northern Ireland would be entitled to have a vote on their independence too. As they are unlikely to be anytime soon, we are 4 nations under one groove and so should negotiate as such. If you look at what is being asked for, it isn't that hard. 195 countries in the world, only 28 are in the eu, we want to be part of the other 167
Oh, if only. True there is oil & gas offshore but unfortunately, either through misfeasance or, heaven forbid, malfeasance, various Govt ministers have sold it all off with no benefit accruing to the country. Ever. We could have been another Norway. https://www.historyireland.com/20th...centurythe-500-deal-for-irelands-gas-and-oil/ As for strategic shipping lanes I don’t think we can charge a toll for their use. I think that’s called piracy. I suppose, on the bright side, there is a Guinness factory in Dublin that works 24/7/365 producing most of the world’s Guinness; that’s an asset.
Clyde basin and beyond. not sold off yet because of trident yer shipping lanes are more important than you think. any idea what it costs to detour a supertanker, or refuse a warship? i would be lying if i quoted a figure but it did come up 5 years ago. we is talking big money.
I didn’t mean it to be one sided, just an observation of the situation. And, in answer to your question, yes. An Irish language act and rights for same sex marriage and abortions are the main sticking points with the DUP. Their stance on the latter two being why I referred to them as antediluvian.
I can well believe it costs a humongous amount of doubloons to divert a supertanker or any other large vessel and my familiarity with shipping law is minimal at best, however, I don’t believe countries can charge for the use of shipping lanes in their territorial waters. My understanding is it’s all done on a free passage basis; ‘you let my boats pass through your waters and Ill do the same for you’. Charging for accessing port facilities is a different matter. However, I stand to be corrected.
It's worth mentioning that only a 3 years ago the dup and Irish governments were aligned with anti lgbt and anti abortion laws. The idea the republic has been a house of understanding since time began is a bit of a falsehood. By pointing at the dup and saying look anti abortion, anti gay whilst forgetting the republic were doing the same only 3 years ago on lgbt and this year on abortion, seems a bit opportunist.
Which is their right too fin. My point is, given even in abortion, the republics position was the same as the dup's as late as only 6 months ago. To then within weeks say, look at them (dup) dinosaurs, would seem opportunist from a country that only 6 months before were dinosaurs themselves. Nothing worse than an ex alcoholic lecturing people who drink, on the wrongs of drink.
Agreed, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise. M. Barnier and the EU may be interested in the EU but Varadkar and the ROI Govt are interested in there not being a border on the island of Ireland again. For sure everyone has their own best interests at heart and feck the others - that's politics. We mustn't forget it's the UK that wants to leave so why should the people of Ireland, north & south, suffer? Also don't forget the majority of those in the north voted to remain. BTW, to declare my hand, I actually think Brexit will be a good thing for the UK - eventually. Err.... Ireland didn't vote to leave, the UK did. The people of Ireland are on the receiving end of that decision, of course they have a voice. I'm at a loss as to why Ireland (or the EU) would represent the UK? I agree with you absolutely on this point. However, these are negotiations and both sides are playing 'hard-ball' but I do believe the UK will exit, despite the best endeavours of many to resist it.
