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1199 Fitting 1199r Rear Pivot Plates And Headstock Bushes To1199s

Discussion in 'Panigale' started by Spud312r, Jul 26, 2018.

  1. Hi Guys

    I have a 2012 1199S that i mainly use on track thats had suspension setup fr/rear but its still slow to turn in and hold an apex - it can be done but its very physical

    Ive read various posts on replaceing the rear swingarm plates from the 1099R that allows -4mm hight and the stearing bushes that reduce the rake from 24.5 to 24deg.

    Ive heard horror stories of getting the old stearing head bushes out (heating up stearing head...) etc and wondered if anybody has done this, has it improved it and at what cost ?

    I've also hear that by dropping the front by around 9mm and lengthening the rear shock by 5mm can give similiar results



    I think these are the part numbers

    2013/14 24 R swingarm pivot height kit

    86050051A PIN
    8291B721AA LEFT HOLDER
    8291B731AA RIGHT HOLDER
    75610332AA OUTSIDE SPACER
    75610301BA BUSH
    75610321AA INNER SPACER
    75610312AA INNER SPACER
    71114641BA COLLAR, R. SWINGARM
    71114631BA BUSH, LH
    77154459Z SCREW
    77214151AA SCREW
    70241191A BUSH
    93041271A SEAL RING 20X26X4
     
  2. Cheers fella
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Hello,
    It seems very odd what you are describing and I'd be looking further at the more basic things you've already mentioned like tyres and suspension? What tyres and suspension setup are you using at the moment? The 1199S should be one of the fastest bikes dropping into a corner that you have been on, not hard to drop in at all. They are definitely physical to ride but in a sensitive to weight changes and bars shaking sort of way because they are so quick to respond to inputs. The only place I'd say the Panigale is very slightly slower is in the time it takes to actually get around a corner; they understeer slightly (mainly if the rear tyre is worn of the grip is bad) so you have to compensate by going to big lean quickly and by powering off the apex to help bring the rear around.

    I wouldn't want to pretend I've done any extensive testing with data on the adjustable swingarm but I have done a lot of trackdays on first the 1199S and then the 1199R with the adjustable setup set to -4 the same as on the 1299. I suppose it may make a difference to corner entry but generally the adjustability is more to help with the squat angle on acceleration and the drive and stability of the bike on corner exit. The supposed problem with the early Panigale was pumping on acceleration because of wheel spin on poor surfaces but I never had a problem with it on any of the earlier bikes other than at Silverstone where the track has a few big bumps going from the GP to National circuit.

    Ducati dropping to the lower -4 setting on the 1299 helped to reduce wheel spin when the surface is not so great so the bike is more stable on acceleration. If the track is nice and grippy with less wheel spin then you put it up to -2 or 0 and theoretically can use the available grip to get better drive.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. By the way I do have all the parts available to convert to the adjustable swingarm. Its from a nearly new R that a good friend had a big crash on so the engine, callipers, and bunch of other parts are all available. We may need to hold onto these parts until the engine sells, I'd need to discuss as the stand goes into them!
     
  5. Cheers fella

    I've come from a MV 312R that was setup for fast track riding (8 years on the bike) which had suspension setup/valved/re-sprung by Darren - MCT , front frorks dropped and rear ride height lifted - so aid the bike dropped into a corner quickly and flipping from one side to another with little effort - for instance gooseneck at cadwell last mon/tues when i was on the panni after 5 sessions i was knackerd trying to lift from the right to the left at the goosekneck and nearly over run teh track onto the grass (yes i should be fitter)

    The panni has had the suspension setup by Darren MCT - new front springs, revaled rear etc and set to ride flat, runnig SC sc1(35psi)/sc2(25psi) - tyres and grip are fine

    So only 2nd trackday on Panni - actually did 3 secs a lap quicker (1.41) than on the MV which really supprised me, but boy was i shagged out , i'd felt like i'd just been in a ring with Tyson. ;-)

    So i rang darren and he state that for cadwell i should have added on 4 turns of preload to help the bike turn in - which i wish i'd called earlier to try..


    Anyway - i'd read that the 1299 had the reduced front rake to 24deg
    and the rear pivot dropped by 4mm which by all reports helps the bike turn in quicker and hook up on the way out..

    So thast where i am now.. do i play with the front preload , drop the forks by 9mm and extend the rear shock - as Dave from Mupo suggested - or try the 1199R kit front and back ?

    Or try a 1299 - V4 panni or RSV4rf ??
     
  6. Ah happy days, maybe just getting used to the bike a bike a bit; the Pani definitely takes a month or two for most people to get to grips with how it best responds. I've never had a chance to ride an MV unfortunately so no idea how they compare but as mentioned whilst I had no surprise you find the ride physical, I was really surprised you found it didn't drop in quickly.

    I definitely think the front head bearing is worth doing to reduce the rake angle so maybe that will do the job? Its a cheap and easy no brainer job. I did the change on my previous 1199S and was very happy with it and the R already has it, I didn't have any issues with the previous setup but I preferred it after.

    Dave at Mupo is a very good resource as he has owned all the Panigales, races the 959 plus being an engineer is very analytical. He helped me sort out my first Pani at Cadwell, only a bit of rebound adjustment but it was bang on the money advice. Do you know if the 9mm drop you mention and extending the shock (how much out of interest?) would be similar to changing the headstop bearings for the 0.5 degrees rake change? I'd be wary of chasing your tail if you are just getting used to the Pani as like I said it needs a bit of time but the advice from Dave does look to be good as an alternative to the hardware changes.
     

  7. Yep Dave mentioned this to try .. cant remeber if it was for MUPO forks kit/shock.. or the ohlins..

    Essentially measure 196mm from bottom yolk to top of seal (approx 10mm through)
    for forks and 317 on shock length. 5mm up on standard.

    I agree with giving it more time, i'm of to Mugello for 3 days mid august so wil see how it goes there and if i can gel with it.. and try Daves changes to see what difference it makes

    Apart from this, i cant fault the bike, hooking up from apex is fine, the flightyness when on throttle hard is ok, its what makes it fun
     
  8. I was trying to analyse the changes this would make as opposed to using the R adjustable swing arm and the headstock bearings. My conclusions (which may be inaccurate or missing some factors) are that you would end up with a shorter wheel base because of lengthening the shock (dropping the swingarm) and dropping the forks. Running a larger rear sprocket like most do also shortens the wheelbase so I'd imagine all those factors combined could end up with a bit of a handful perhaps? I'd be doing the head angle bearings as a first call just because it's an easy win that leaves you more options elsewhere.
     
  9. I just thought , something else I would hugely recommend is the tank extenders that push you back in the seat. The Panigale is known for mid corner low sides if you let off throttle and the tank extender seems to stop them almost completely. I havn't really heard others talk much about it but I find everything works better if I ride it off the back wheel more and I think the tank extender helps this.
     
  10. Cheers

    As i'm of to muggello so i have put gearing back to stock..
    (rear shock length is 110mm set by MCT)

    I've tried to look at what Darren from MCT stated , that to increase front preload and reduce rear preload (increase ride height) to decrease wheelbase - i bit like the stearing head kit (by the way do you know the part numbers and where i can get these ??)
    This is a very easy to try and test

    I've also thought about what Dave - @ Mupo suggested
    Drop forks through top yoke and increase shock length (increase ride height) - which is very similar to what Darren stated
    This is also fairly easy to try and test

    Then there is the steering head head kit which reduces ..

    P.S Where can i get the tank extenders from ?

    Do you think what Darren from MCt states is valid, or will that upset anything else , i know its a compromise , but just wondered what you thought..
     
  11. Mugello has to be one of the best short circuits in the world. I loved the place when we went last year, and Imola is also amazing.


    I've also thought about what Dave - @ Mupo suggested
    Drop forks through top yoke and increase shock length (increase ride height) - which is very similar to what Darren stated
    This is also fairly easy to try and test

    Then there is the steering head head kit which reduces ..


    I got mine from Piero Cossu at www.race-pro.nl , I had a whole bunch of stuff off of him and would recommend him. They prep Superstock bikes so have some really handy parts and info.

    I dont understand how this would have the affect of reducing the wheelbase, I'd expect the opposite? Is he trying to say it dynamically reduces it at a certain time perhaps to help with turn in?

    Increasing the front preload will stiffen the front up (you'll probably want to increase the rebound dampening as well to stop it pogo-ing back up) and stop it diving so much which is reasonable as the Pani is a hero on the brakes so it's easy to use all the suspension travel in braking. Decreasing the rear preload will soften the back and squat the rear more. Both together will help to keep the bike more level instead of diving. The whole adjustable rear swingarm thing is to sort out exit drive and if you have the rear squating too much it gives a bunch of handling issues (some stuff here https://motomatters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3931).
    I'm not saying he is wrong, I just dont understand why it would work. I'm racing this weekend so will try and remember to ask a few people their thoughts.
     

  12. Ok i think i'l put what Darren state on hold, but will work with what Dave mentioned during the Muggello days.

    It may be great as std as Muggello seems much more fast flowing than say Cadwell so i will spend day 1 getting used the circuit and bike and then try a few things on day 2..

    What/who are you racing with ??
     
  13. Guys

    I have the parts ordered for the front 24deg rake kit for my 1199S trackbike (2012)

    Anybody have any instructions on how to remove/replace the frame steering head bushes ?

    Will they just drift out from top and bottom (slide hammer or drift)?

    Do you need to warm up the frame and use freeze spray on the bushes ?

    Putting new ones in - leave them in freezer and warm frame ?
     
  14. Freeze ray..
    gru.jpg
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. Do you have a list of parts you ordered?
    As I have the same task planned
     
  16. I have ordered just the frame bushes at the moment..
    Reasonable @ only £31 each

    1199R frame Bush 24deg 75610361AA x 2
    1199s Frame bush dust seal 93041911A x 2

    1199s Head Seal ring 93010041B x 2
    11992 Head Bearing 70241231A x 2
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  17. Good move, it's definitely worth doing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Hi Fella

    The front frame head bush kit ordered from Moto Rapido arrived/plus bearings
    The exising alloy head plates are removed so waiting to put these in..

    Notice the 23.5 def instead of 24deg !!..

    75610361AA part ordered
    STEERING BUSH OPTION 1199R/899
    24.5 deg 5MM = L MARKING ON RIGHT
    23.5 DEG -5MM = L MARKING ON LEFT



    Also do you have the 1009R swingarm parts for sale ??

    "By the way I do have all the parts available to convert to the adjustable swingarm. Its from a nearly new R"

    By the way Mugello was fantastic - what a circuit...
     
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