British Indy: What Happens Now?

Discussion in 'Speakers Corner' started by Loz, May 23, 2015.

?
  1. Full Brexit with "no EU deal" on the 29th March.

  2. Request Extension to article 50 to allow a general election and new negotiations.

  3. Request Extension to article 50 to allow cross party talks and a new deal to be put to EU.

  4. Request Extension to article 50 to allow a second referendum on 1. Remain in EU or 2. Full Brexit.

  5. Table a motion in parliament to Remain in EU WITHOUT a referendum.

  6. I don't know or I don't care anymore

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Third attempt at crafting a response. The first two were rubbish and in any event, my wonderful internet connection ensured that only fragments were saved to the Cloud. Just as well.

    ******

    The biggie is the Welfare State. It's also the manifestation of big government that is least likely to be addressed.
    This is the provision by the State and via public, non-voluntary funding of a "safety net" that historically was either supplied through voluntary, charitable donations or, more usually, not supplied at all. People historically looked after themselves and those near and dear to them. Or they didn't, and people died.
    Not much we can do with the Welfare State now. The creation of the modern Welfare State and the prevalent expectation that "the State will look after me" means the idea of undergoing serious privation and getting yourself out of hole you are in, seem rather quaint and foreign to us now. The Welfare State has changed how people feel about themselves, their responsibilities (both to self and to others, and not entirely in a good way).
    In any event, that ship has sailed, whilst our current society holds together. It's not going anywhere.
    However … if an incremental rolling back of the vast scope of the Welfare State could be achieved, elective surgeries for example, over the course of a couple of generations say … nah. Can't be done. Be realistic.

    The more power that a government holds over you, the more power someone who is most likely entirely unsuited to lead holds over you. The greedy owner of Amazon that you might detest intensely is the same kind of person who may be your Prime Minister or, Goat forbid, EU Commission President. It's worth remembering that.

    Smaller government, or more accurately, government closer to the people being governed, can be seen in Scotland, with its devolved powers. There is over-view by Westminster but in many ways, Scotland is autonomous. Good for them.

    County Councils, etc are closer to the people under their jurisdiction. Not that this matters much, local councils have very little autonomy. However, imagine if the country was divided into regions - Scotland, Midlands, North East, North West, Anglia, South West. I'm not proposing those as the regions, just using them as hypothetical examples for now.

    What if a Region has identified an issue that the people living there agreed was important to them, but which has never been addressed to their satisfaction by Westminster?
    What if London Region were utterly fed up with one or more of its constituencies presenting voter turnouts in excess of 100%? What if London Region wanted to introduce Voter ID for elections to combat voter fraud?
    What if Anglia is fed up with FPTP distorting how its region is represented in Parliament and wants PR?
    What if the North East wants to "get tough on crime" with regard to child rapists or murderers or, Hell, speeding motorists?
    What is the South West wants to eliminate private schools (but the South East does not)?
    What if the North East is fed up with supertrawlers sailing up to ten miles from the shore, hoovering up local fish stocks as they go? What if they want tp do something (no idea what!) about it?

    The devil is in the details, always. A counterargument can be made, "Why shouldn't each street have its own laws?". This is a garbage straw man, of course. No one is asking for that. What is being suggested is an approach that eschews one-size-fits-all politics in favour of more power resting closer to the people. I suggest that the aforementioned straw man, "autonomous city street states", is no less and no more ridiculous than the idea of a European Superstate that will soon decide policy at virtually every level on behalf of the UK (if we Remain or rejoin), Germany, France, Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary ... we cannot even get England and Scotland to agree on how to govern, how are you going to get Germany and Greece to see eye to eye?

    My examples above could be seen as potentially breaking up the country into fiefdoms. I believe that is an extreme interpretation but not beyond the realms of the possible. What I will say though is, I would like to see our political instincts veer more towards empowering people, devolving authority downwards.
    What I see in the UK and Europe is the tendency to push all authority upwards to the centre. Surely we can agree that that is the case?

    I will enjoy a reasoned debate on the points I've raised. I will not expect any agreement for my ideas or suggestions.

    NB, no totty this time. Get over it.
     
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  2. What no boobies? Don't worry, they will be along in a minute :D
     
  3. You spoke too soon ;)
     
  4. The biggie is the Welfare State. It's also the manifestation of big government that is least likely to be addressed.
    This is the provision by the State and via public, non-voluntary funding of a "safety net" that historically was either supplied through voluntary, charitable donations or, more usually, not supplied at all. People historically looked after themselves and those near and dear to them. Or they didn't, and people died.
    Not much we can do with the Welfare State now. The creation of the modern Welfare State and the prevalent expectation that "the State will look after me" means the idea of undergoing serious privation and getting yourself out of hole you are in, seem rather quaint and foreign to us now. The Welfare State has changed how people feel about themselves, their responsibilities (both to self and to others, and not entirely in a good way).
    In any event, that ship has sailed, whilst our current society holds together. It's not going anywhere.
    However … if an incremental rolling back of the vast scope of the Welfare State could be achieved, elective surgeries for example, over the course of a couple of generations say … nah. Can't be done. Be realistic.
    The more power that a government holds over you, the more power someone who is most likely entirely unsuited to lead holds over you. The greedy owner of Amazon that you might detest intensely is the same kind of person who may be your Prime Minister or, Goat forbid, EU Commission President. It's worth remembering that.
    .
    for rural areas like mine, the smaller the state, the less viable it is to live here for the average joe. private companies wont provide afordable services to rural areas
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Matter of opinion old bean :D
     
  6. I see no boobies.
     
  7. I think it was rhyming slang :thinkingface:
     
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  8. Ireland was only ever one country until the British facilitated its partition via the “opt out” based upon religion. That partition facilitated one community as dominant and the other as second class. Couldn’t vote, couldn’t own a horse. Discrimination in the jobs market.

    If the U.K. were to apply the same
    Standards to NI and Scotland today, both would “opt out” of BREXIT. But it doesn’t. It prefers to prevent that in order to amongst other things keep control over the North Channel which sits between Scotland and NI.

    “in late 1921 when the Anglo-Irish Treaty created the Irish Free State out of the 26 remaining counties, ruled by the Dáil Éireann. This split became the basis of the partition.


    If you are getting lost in the complicated history, we have another twist that needs to be introduced. When the Treaty actually came into force, it created an Irish Free State of 32 counties, the whole island. However, there was an opt-out clause for the six counties in Ulster and this was invoked, due to some timing problems, only the day after the Free State came into being
     
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  9. That’s an interesting viewpoint. You seem to be suggesting fewer but larger and more powerful local authorities. Almost like a mini-federal system, a United States of Britain?

    I have some sympathy with the idea of bringing power closer to the people, but....

    My experience of the sort of people who run and staff local authorities is not at all positive, so it’s doubtful that the standard of government would improve (in my view). I wanted to type “it might get worse” but then I remembered that these days UK national politics is like a drawing room farce...

    As you say, it risks fragmenting the country.

    Costs? You’d lose the economies of scale involved in national or supranational government.

    Any examples of similar systems of government elsewhere for countries similar in size and standing to the U.K.?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Well should mr Bercow be taken to the tower
    Wonder how many other impartial people have been double dealing with the eu
     
  11. Perhaps including BoJo cooking up a ruse with Hungary whereby they abstain from the vote or vote no to the extension request, causing the U.K. to crash out.

    I wonder if that’s his ace in the hole which is enabling him to say “we will comply with the law but we are still leaving on 31 Oct”

    It’s purely speculation on my part and I have no evidence to suggest that’s happened and I’ve not even read of anyone suggesting it could happen (I was just working through the possible outcomes in my head the other day*) but it would be awfully convenient for him......



    * I predicted the Credit Crunch, Generation Rent and a no deal Brexit so I have some form as an amateur soothsayer!
     
  12. What has he done ?
     
  13. Fury as EU Parliament chief reveals he met Commons Speaker John Bercow to discuss their 'shared' desire to to avoid No Deal Brexit
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  14. As per BoJo’s visits to the lap dancer’s flat, I’m sure their discussions were only ever entirely proper. :yum
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  15. Bit of a difference lap dancing or colluding with a foreign power to subvert the will of the people
     
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  16. [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  17. I wasn’t being serious Mark. Just predicting what the party line will be on what looks like pretty dodgy conduct.

    Although it wasn’t just lap dancing. She and her companies were the recipients of large amounts of public money and were granted privileged access to people. If true, that might well be misfeasance in public office (by BoJo).
     
    #40040 Zhed46, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019