Also the difference with road tyres is that you have a lot less rubber on the road when at the more extreme lean angles than you would with the very steep race tyres, which only have a little rubber contact when fully upright.
I'm sorry but that's just not right regardless of what speed they hit down the straights. Silverstone is familiar to some of us from the TV, TDs, or racing and the only UK circuit the best riders ride at, just watch this video and count how many seconds in a lap the bike is upright, despite it being a very long lap one hand should be more than enough :
The video is blocked. Not that I need to see it because they are not going to turn in earlier than us because they would be tightening the radius through the corner. The biggest fault of most inexperienced people is not turning in late enough. There is nothing to be gained at all from turning in before you hit the maximum arc through the apex and corner.... only if you want to defend the line by getting across the track a bit, but we all know that isn't the fastest way through a corner.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.drivingfast.net/racing-line/?amp=1 "To carry maximum speed through a corner, you need to take the route that minimises the tightness of the corner arc." By turning in early, you end up having to tighten (slower) your arc in the corner from the perfect (faster) wide sweeping arc. There is zero speed advantage from turning in early.
Yeah, you needed to watch it on YouTube as it told you. No point even trying to discuss this until you've watched it but I guess you know better than the best riders in the world so you don't need to watch it, as you say "Not that I need to see it". Crack on mate.
They will be turning incredibly late, be on the brakes harder and for longer into the corner, and the reason they are not upright is more the speed they carry than the radius they take. It's one of the most noticeable things when a very quick (like fast group plus plus) comes past that you notice: no way they will make the Corner going in at that speed! But they do
Drop the attitude and realize you are he only person here claiming that professional racers want to compromise their line by turning in early..... all based upon counting how long they are traveling down the straights (on much faster bikes). I definitely do not know better than all of the best riders in the world, and that is very definitely what I have said. Listen to any commentator or rider, read any book on cornering (or the link I sent... or search your own), and there is always that perfect curve through a corner. Watch that video again and see how gentle and consistent a curve they are pulling and the tremendous speed they carry.... it is one constant curve from turn in to apex to exit kerb. I'll leave it at that because there is no point arguing about one of the most basic parts of riding a track... the fastest line.
The fast guys are drawing the widest radius corners around the track and making the most of the space, hence using lots of kerbs and so on. It takes time to go from full upright to cranked over plus the more upright they are the less the bike turns so they get it down very fast so they can pick it up quickly to drive out of the corners. Usually that means braking late and turning quickly to get the best exit but it also depends on the bikes. The Yamaha is slower to turn but has very fast corner speed so takes a more swooping line like an old school Ducati road bike whereas the Honda (has a shorter wheelbase?) turns very quickly so those guys brake super deep and slam it down hard to really minimise the time turning because it's slower than the Yamaha in the corner and they are currently struggling with the drive on exit so they want to get it upright again quickly. The Ducati does best using similar entry lines to the Honda but it does not turn so easily mid corner so it is very physical for the rider. I'm not sure, the race ones are all fairly similar. I guess Pirelli as I need to look at lifting my rear a bit for Dunlop. The widest part of the race tyres is around 20-30 degrees or lean as thats the time when you are driving hard out of the corner.
Totally agree that sometimes to square off a corner they don't take the optimum swoops line.... but that means that are turning in even later than the optimum line, not earlier. (I know that is what you are saying, I'm just emphasizing the point about turn in point).
Yeah agreed, was just elaborating on what you already said up above and trying to link it into what @Air Duck was saying.
Later just narrower . It's something that any wannabe track rider / racer should practice, going offline so passes can be made. I'm shit at it.
@Jolley what I was trying to say was that the fastest guys (except perhaps Marquez and Stoner) perform much/most of their braking and turning whilst they are not upright and this is evident from any onboard footage from the modern era. This is contrary to the 'old' advice to get all your braking done 'straight up and down' as well as the 'old' advice to be have all of your braking done before you start turning. This is one of those topics though for sure... FWIW (not very much) I posses and have read/watched every book and video that I know of on track riding techniques that have been available for the past 3 decades, doesn't mean I know anything for sure but I have studied them and am always trying to improve my riding yet I see that the older style of riding has changed into something else now and I'm trying to say that perhaps it's not right anymore to keep telling people that the 'old way' is still the right way - particularly when the fastest guys don't ride that way anymore.
Forget the science, I'm fairly quick (or at least used to be) and my technique is to absolutely nail it down the straights, brake the latest of the late brakers inside everyone else so as to ruin their racing lines, chuck it over on its side - one knee on the tarmac holding it up, the other high up on the tank and then nail it again just past the apex letting centrifugal force do the rest. Worked every time except for the time at Castle Combe when the sheer braking exertion broke the pin holding the brake lever in place and saw me embeddded in the tyre wall at Quarry corner. Oh, and that time at Thruxton when etc etc.........
You're like me as I tend to hoover up every bit of info as well. I've only been riding for a few years so dont have much experience but what you are describing sounds very much like the Simon Crafer style of riding where he brakes very hard whilst upright and then lets off the brake and squares off the corner versus the style often promoted at California Super Bike where riders gradually reduce the trail braking right up to the apex. I think it's bike, rider and track dependent but as with new MotoGP bikes,the new road bikes like the Panigale are able to trail brake very very deep into the corner which was much harder to do on older bikes. Marquez and Co on the Hondas do what seems to be a combination of both as they can go in really deep but still brake at mega lean and not lose it. The safer option is definitely to do the braking whilst upright but there's lots of time to be gained with trail braking, especially up the inside into hairpins like @JoeC mentions when others are taking the wide swooping line
Yes I keep remembering that as I'm wincing trying to learn to trail brake deep in the wet... Kinda "Oh my god, oh my god I wanna let go of the brake NOW!" Haha such fun this track riding/training malarky! Yep, agree with the rest of that post too - I did levels 1-3 of CSS the first year they came to Europe and it transformed my approach to riding, but, what Crafar tells us is mostly what the GP boys are doing now wet or dry. It's been harder for me trying to transition from the CSS approach to this newer style, a lot harder than going from my 'no idea but I think I'm fast' approach to the CCS way for sure but that's perhaps because I'm 20-something years older now! Another major difference now is the increased use of the rear brake. The top guys tend to mix up styles depending on their needs as you allude to but when they're not overtaking they all tend to take pretty much exactly the same lines (again, onboard footage is our mentor) and they are hardly ever with a horizontal horizon, they are never truly upright, or near it, for more than about 0.5 of a second at a time. The new way IS riding on the sides of the tyre whereas the old way was riding upright as much as possible and being on the side for the shortest time. Agreed that it depends on bike and tyres massively of course and that often dictates the riding style. So... instead of just arguing on here I bought myself a 50Hz GPS and multiple linked cameras for my track training this year - where I'm trying to learn the 'new' way (including entering the corner sideways on) - will be interesting to compare certain corners to the end of last year, if I'm still in one piece... Loads of homework!
