So am I. Phoned several ducati shops for off the shelf pistons where they could provide me with the letter stamped on the top. None in stock as i thought. Apparently special order item and if I decide not suitable incur a 25% restock charge. Amazing ! Could be rather costly and would probably pay the extra £210 + vat for both cylinders to be replated . Bit of a pain but will ensure the perfect fit. Trouble is in removing the plating the paint comes with it. Not a problem I suppose just annoying I may need to take this costly route. Expect a phone call as usual if I get stuck on rebuild.
I think I would look at purchasing pistons of the correct tolerance grade if possible unlesd they were hugely expensive. I expect I'll be hearing from you
Thought of that. Pistal or ferrocia forged pistons. According to rapido, Hackett, pro twins only available as is i.e one size. Only Hackett had stock until they looked at box and for some reason one was missing. Lead time possibly three weeks however if no stock coming from Italy maybe next year ! ferrocia available from America but couldn’t find much feedback on quality but look good. Phoned another supplier of Pistal and they wanted me to accurately measure the bore before ordering. So bike shops don’t ask whereas this piston supplier did. Again very confusing. Pistal more expensive and HC so extra cost would offset plating for perfect fit. It was suggested I would need to plate to fit the Pistal by one guy. Wait and see what arrives.
Sorry to hear about your woes, I've got the black 1098S and we've met a few times over the years Thanks for posting all this up, because if this happens to me (or others) you have saved us all lot of time cash and grief already Appreciated & Many Thanks John
Hi John, Been a while as no longer frequent dg after my good mate Harry left hence the reason for going to rapido. Probably a bit anal when it comes to detail but spent life designing electronic and mechanical systems where precision was paramount and apply to my bikes now, especially as I carry out my own work now. Hope to see you again especially after she’s rebuilt and running fine again all going well.
Update Pistons have arrived and stamped grade B which is good as matches my grade B barrel. With a measured 104.020mm barrel by Langcourt my present piston to bore lies in range 0.095 to 0.105 which agrees with ducati spec. I’m going to send pistons to Langcourt today to get the actual size for future reference. I’ve included pictures of what the valves and heads look like after 60k. Clearances have been measured and I’ve included a picture my worksheet. Sheet courtesy of EMS. NOTE: During my 6k service one shim was changed on vertical cylinder. Apart from that and according to my FDSH they have never been adjusted. This was confirmed with the addition of three bond on the pulley seals on one cylinder. Decided to adopt the opener and closer clearances recommended by Sneider i.e opener 0.13mm, closer 0.05mm. There’s a large build up of carbon on the intake valves at the bottom valve stem. Normally caused by oil leakage past the valve oil seals. In my case I think they’ve parted company where the rubber meets the outer metal shell. Anyway will replace all. In order to achieve this I’ve manufactured a tool but you need to remove the rocker arms especially for the exhaust valve gear. In my case with heads off I simply dremel a slot in outer shell and pull off. My insert tool is basically a turned bit of hex brass - recess end to take outer casing and tap 8mm. The pin is a 8mm screw turned down to 7mm for perfect fit into valve guide and centres everything. Material cost about £2. The other annoying thing is holding down the rockers to remove closers. Have manufactured a V tool that splays both valves open and makes this a very simple task. Personally after dismantling my 2V monster I find the four valve much easier to work on apart from initial dismantling of bike. I was advised to purchase the complete top end gasket kit (£320). Now in possession of kit I think I would cost the parts separately as the included pulley seals cost around £60 for the four which can’t be replaced without other additional expense. Kit includes: All O’rings and rubber seals i.e barrel studs, heads and rocker covers. Head and base gaskets. 8 Valve stem oil caps. Does not include the aluminium seals on rocker arm securing screws. * Four seals for pulleys. Expensive and although ducati suggest changing them not that easy and more added expense. Discuss later. Does not include exhaust gasket. * To replace the pulley seals provided you need the following: Removal Pulley locking tool and castalated driver to remove the elastic nuts. Ducati tool expensive and only other supplier I found is hedsa in states. Cheap at £14 but £25 for postage. Will design my own and have waterjet cut if I decide to use my expensive seals. Cheap way to make castalated driver is a 1/2 drive socket which is through hardened. A quality socket (snap on , Britool) is through hardened and superior to the one supplied by Ducati which can round the edges. Already have one and can be easily filed and hence not hard. Mark of high points and simply dremel. Takes about 20 minuted with diamond disc cutter. Replace Same tools as above. Not supplied in the kit is the one off use elastic nuts. They will set you back another £8 per nut. Does get expensive. Have some play in vertical exhaust valve to guide clearance. Thinking of buying a bore gauge set (£70) to measure accurately clearance as wiggle test not that great in my opinion unless vastly experienced with such a technique. Had such gauges in my past employment for a different application and really shows the wiggle test not that accurate as an accurately and well within spec bore was failed by an expert in the wiggle test. Amazing that ovality and taper to within 30 micron can be measured with such a test ! Anyway thought some may find the above useful in tacking their own top end rebuild.
Update. Received my plated barrels from Langcourt. See pics. Plating looks fine but I was informed that all paint would be removed in the stripping process. Not quite. See pics. What you’re left with a highly discoloured paint finish. See pics. I’ve now masked off the top/bottom surface and will now attempt to remove this discolouration using a dremel and brass brush. Failing that I’ll air brush a HT paint which I’m using on my monster. Exhaust valve heavily pitted and have now been re ground so now lapping in all valves. I’m rather impatient so would have been wise to consider this before shim measurement and ordering ! Not to worry but will need to remeasure once lapped. Some people swear by using liquid to check seal. The serdi machine comes with a vacuum chuck going down to 0.1 bar i.e 1bar is atmospheric pressure for checking. I’ve made my diy device with a simple single stage pump t piece and a bourdon gauge. Hopefully will work well. Still waiting on my ordered shims etc . Not great if I was in a rush.
For reference when dealing with langcourt - things that get lost in translation - Glaswegian to English. Phoned regarding discolouration of paint and compatibility with painting over. Although I offered to remove all paint using chemical etching before sending I was assured it wasn’t necessary as all paint will be removed during stripping process. Not exactly the case, they’re shot blasted and thick paint stays put. With additional time and hence money and at the customers request all paint can be removed. No offer of this service after several phone calls for advice and forwarding of barrels for assessment. Now plated I can’t etch the paint chemically and shot blasting out if the question. I’ve heard good thing about langcourt so hopefully the plating is better than their communication skills.
Geoff, I've been following your 1098 rebuild thread and from the beginning you have made much mention of Langcourt without actually mentioning who they are and what they do, although that has become fairly obvious from your posts. For the unenlightened : http://www.langcourt.com/ Also, do I see what looks like a nick out of the bottom of the spigot of the barrel on the right in the picture above? I've always been happy using petrol to check valve seat sealing. If it stays there overnight they are good.
Would have been useful to mention who they are. Thanks for that. The barrels come like that with two half moons on each side. See pic. Both barrels masked, painted and returned to former glory. Like you I’ve normally used some petrol to check sealing but what’s been sealed is a combustible gas and apparently the method used by race pros and is included with the serdi 3 for cutting seats etc is a small vacuum pump and a selection of manifold seals. Phoned the company used by John Hackett and moto rapido and spoke to a very informative owner that gave me some great tricks in lapping techniques and pointed me in the direction of the vacuum method for testing. This technique is used in F1 and other race series. When testing my monster with newly cut seats I was unsure of the vacuum method and took it a stage further. I manufactured a base plate complete with four pillars for fixing the head complete with gasket. I then used my newly acquired leak detector with two gauges to measure leak rates. With an applied 100psi I got zero leakage confirming the vacuum technique. I have access to a small vacuum pump but for those that only have a compressor consider using a Venturi tube. For more info see internet but basically a reducing orifice within a tube causes a differential pressure at the interface. That’s were the vacuum is formed and a simple take off is used to test the seal. Basically the same technique is used in a leak detector. Unfortunately the commercially available leakage detectors don’t provide the take off.
Phoned moto rapido today asking after my shims - been a while now. Turns out Ducati are moving their parts warehouse from Mdina to Bologna to share a warehouse with Lamborgina. Obviously another AUDI change for the better?
Phoned moto rapido today asking after my shims - been a while now. Turns out Ducati are moving their parts warehouse from Mdina to Bologna to share a warehouse with Lamborgina. Obviously another AUDI change for the better?
Yes, the warehouse shift seems to have been going on for a while. Bit worrying that Motorapido don't keep a stock of them.
They do but limited to workshop only as they can’t afford to run out of shims for serviced bikes. In general, I’ve found in the past of the shops I phoned none would release shims. Waited two months for a shim for my monster last year from my local dealer that you’re familiar with. Gave up and in the end the parts guy at moto rapido approached workshop staff and agreed to sell me one. Pretty pathetic as it’s at the heart of every ducati engine i.e bevel, belt, chain.
I'm certainly going to miss the service we had previously. H would do an exchange for me as long as the workshop had them in stock, if not they had to be ordered. Usually had them within the week.
Miss H badly. In my opinion one of the best parts guys around with a wealth of knowledge on all things ducati and so knowledgeable on all makes of bikes and willing to go the extra mile. He started in the bike trade way back in early 80’s and had basically never left - so basically 30 years plus. Worked in service and a competent tech and so knowledgable on all things parts. Could turn this hand to anything in my opinion. A real asset. Now going elsewhere for tyres and all my parts and you really appreciate a guy that’s on the ball. Still keep in touch with him after losing his beloved wife Linda and he’s keeping well.
Still waiting on shims - pretty pathetic. Whilst waiting here’s my valve leak check setup I discussed building. Seems to work fine. I’ve used a single stage vacuum pump with a 1/4 turn in line valve. The gauge measures from 0 to -1.0 bar and is installed in line with the valve. Easily goes down to - 0.8 bar and allows me to measure the leak rate once I close the 1/4 turn valve. The serdi valve seat cutter checks down to -0.1 bar which it claims is good to go. Hose is petrol tubing. Most setups use a plate that goes over the complete manifold but the downside - which valve is leaking ?
Thanks for that. From what I understand you need to purchase a shim set initially and singles thereafter. Have I read this wrong ? Regarding the other specialist do you have names for future reference. Already had my account debited by moto rapido so need to wait for shims. I meet up with friends from Mdina Italia, Made In Italy, ducati singles and others ducati classic guys. Was always happy to purchase from my local ducati shop until recently so never thought to ask them - rather stupid I suppose but will in the future.
On a shim thing, when people are told that you need some new shims and the garage/mechanic replaces them, how many of you get the old shims back?
