Whenever there is a worldwide glut of a commodity (for example oil or steel), with higher supply than demand, then prices fall. And if prices fall below the cost of producing the commodity, so that producers are running at a loss, what do you think will happen next? Should they go on producing unsaleable commodities at a loss? Who is going to pay for this? And for how long? Or will they be obliged to close down? It is all very well moaning about the EU being "ineffectual"; you give no clue what should be done. What do you think they ought to do? If the EU did not exist, how would that help deal with the problem? What would any non-EU institutions be able to do which would not be "ineffectual"? If you are going to have a capitalist system with free markets, these kinds of problems will often arise. In or out of the EU. It's rather hilarious, the way that Europhobes rush to blame anything and everything which happens on the EU, regardless of facts or reason.
The big problem I have listening to the debate is the fact that based on my area of expertise, 30 plus years of running an import/export/distribution business, those arguing to stay in for trade reasons appear to be talking nonsense. It is not complicated to trade with countries outside the EU at all. If they have something I want to buy, or vice versa and everything stacks up then the business goes ahead. Plenty of non EU states benefit from free trade access to the EU so being a member is not essential. Some of these non EU states are thousands of miles away so not even potential members like say Turkey. For those states where there is not free trade it is the governments that set import tariffs and believe me they don't mind a bit of import duty to top up the coffers. I draw the conclusion that if the pro EU side are talking rubbish in the area I know about they may well be talking rubbish in other areas too .
When two people have a conversation,the manipulation is limited to either or both of the parties.The small number of people involved limits the effects of the manipulation,unless either party decides to spread the word.If a car salesman sells you a dodgy car by failing to mention it's defects,the misery is inflicted upon the buyer and his near associates Journalists/the media in general have a much larger audience.Their bias or agenda may affect large numbers of people,and unfortunately there are large numbers of people who appear to be relatively easily fooled. Which is,of course what many companies/organisations/government departments/the royal family rely on. Without the media,these outfits could not keep selling the unsellable... "Theres a recession and millions are homeless-lets spend billions staging the Olympics and in the process make Sebastian Coe a VERY RICH MAN INDEED" "Oh look theres a nasty man being horrible to his people in a far away land and a good number of them don't seem to mind-lets interfere and send British troops over there to be the target of everyones hatred" "I'm an INCREDIBLY WEALTHY MUSICIAN-and I'm prepared to give up a few hours of my EXTREMELY VALUABLE TIME to tell you poor people to give YOUR money to MY choice of charity" ...to suggest but a few,but there are thousands...millions...of examples,I'm sure
As an example Pete, I understand there is a great price penalty for UK producers due to the higher cost of the electricity they use against other European producers. The UK government is unable to take any action to correct due to competition regulations laid down. These almost seem designed to impede EU companies in the world marketplace without stopping CE certified Chinese products easily out-competing in the EU manufactured goods. The Chinese government is able to support Steel producers in subsidies, grants, etc that any EU producer would be unable to. So without a level playing field the UK producers cannot survive through a relatively short term market glut of subsidised steel supply. The EU should have taken heed of this approaching problem a couple of years ago and bought in tariffs or other measures to protect what is vital production for the future of Europe's manufacturing companies. So, without the shackles of the present EU structure, the UK government could have intervened for the long term survival of steel production in the UK which has surely got to make sense. I am generally against this form of intervention unless there is clearly an unfairness in the way the unfair forces are likely to put key manufacturers out of business. This is why I feel the EU structure is not working and needs substantial reform and not the weak set of goals that Cameron has settled on. The EU has grown far too quickly, accepted Countries into the Euro that didn't meet the criteria and bent the rules to do so. This was done without the support of many Europeans and I think many people in the UK would be enthusiastic for the old Common Market but not the unauduted, interfering Federation of Europe that certain leaders are hell bent on creating.
It's a broken experiment in my opinion (like the Euro) and just a matter of time until it unravels. If we do vote to leave, will the Scots use it as the lever to leave the UK when the oil price is in the doldrums? Interesting times! Is that Boris I can see on a white stallion.....[/QUOTE] yip,being pulled from the EU because of a rest of the uk out vote would deffo be quite ironic considering one of "project fear" big ticket items was claiming Scotland would be highly unlikely to gain EU or NATO membership. utter bollox and forgetting about any other argument and only because of an accident of geography and geology. the north sea. not much cod left in the English channel and you cant hide many subs or war ships their ether, i think also by accident of location we have good strategic locations for defending and servicing the north Atlantic fleet. forget about oil, from what i can make out the figures of 7-9bill Scottish deficit are based on currant uk expenditure/debt repayments and the choices on spending the Westminster parliament make. just one example, the 2% of gdp spent on defense including trident. most country's don't. i read recently Iceland spend 0.1%. so a few bob can be saved there. but consider this, what IF the UK vote to stay IN because of a Scottish/Welsh or N.Ireland vote?. lastly if we are gonna get stuck with a tory government for the next several terms. get boris on it, cant think of a more entertaining prospect. now carry on. enjoying this, even tho it all looks v.familiar. :smileys:
In the light of last nights events, who would blame France for controlling their borders and re-opening passport control
If the UK votes out of the EU, will they come back in when the Scottish government takes control of the UK? I will not be voting in the referendum as I have voted with my feet and left the UK for good.
The open door policy that has been followed by several EU countries facilitates this kind of event. A world without borders allows opposing ideologies to come into greater contact and hence conflict. There can be no compromise or negotiation with these people, mainly because they do not want compromise or negotiation, what they do want is to destroy our way of life and replace it with theirs. How depressing and sad for all those affected by this latest atrocity.
Do you think that the UK borders are closed? The people that you see at Calais are the few who didn't make it over the water, all their mates have made it and are in the UK as we speak. The biggest threat for the UK are the home grown baddies, the ones that were born and bread in the UK with all the freedom and human rights that they know, who use that freedom to carry out acts against the UK from within or by joining ISIS. Open borders or closed borders, no potential terrorist is going to show a genuine passport, but would rather access his target while invisible, what better way to be invisible than to get in on a lorry where no one can see you? "The open door policy that has been followed by several EU countries facilitates this kind of event." I assume then that the bombings on the London underground did not happen in the UK with its closed borders.
Unfortunately the biggest threats come from within and not through our poor border control. Radicalised, disenchanted youths born in the UK into moderate westernised families, getting all the advantage of education but then still somehow get led toward Islamic fundamentalists. If we can try to understand and tackle why they don't feel part of Britain and see moving to join Daish as being more attractive for them. Unfortunately, that's a tough one to fix. France has a much bigger problem than us; I suspect all the dead terrorists are identified as French Muslims who can see no future for them in their place of birth. Depressing times and just makes me feel Muslim = bad which just perpetuates the problem.
