Pete I think you need to be reminded of where you started - you were asking what's the difference The difference has clearly and succinctly been set out The former involves payment back to the artist in some way - the latter doesnt It was never a thread about the technical definition of theft It was a thread about why one is different from the other
Quite right to remind me of the original question. It has become abundantly clear from the discourse that there really is no difference at all. It is nothing but hogwash.
Sorry but thats (another) cop-out Admit it - in the legal one the artist gets paid and in the illegal one they dont
I assume you can cite a reference for this? What am I saying, of course you can. Not that that makes any difference at all. The decision to differentiate between the two categories of materials that were illegally obtained is a matter of practicality and any other stated reason is pure window dressing, entirely for appearance's sake.
There is an article on this subject published in the independent today Illegal downloading: What happens if you're caught? - Features - Gadgets and Tech - The Independent You may well escape prosecution under criminal law if you download/copy music but do no distribute it, but it is illegal. If you search further there have been a few cases in the USA of individuals being successfully prosecuted and it being upheld in the supreme court. Only a matter of time before it happens here, our laws on copyright are more robust. I suspect the record companies/publishers are only after the distributors at this stage, but that may well change.
More accurately, you cannot possibly be prosecuted under criminal law if you download/copy music but do not distribute it. It is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.
More accurately: some states in the USA make downloading even for personal use a criminal offence, unlike the UK. That cannot happen here, because our laws on copyright are less robust than USA (although tough by European standards). Record companies / publishers are only after distributors as far as criminal prosecutions are concerned, but may try to bring civil actions against users.
Agreed but what's the difference, UK criminal courts are unlikely to award custodial sentences for copyright infringement and a fine is more likely. But you can be prosecuted in a civil court and receive what is effectively the same sentence, damages awarded that are equal or greater to fine awarded by a criminal court.
Let's be clear: you absolutely definitely cannot be prosecuted in a civil court. That is simply wrong. Civil courts never do prosecutions.
OK a claim can be made against you by the owner of the copyright as a result of downloading music without their permission.
Correct - in theory. However for one single music track that claim would be only £1 or so, and no court will entertain trivial claims ("De minimis non curat lex"). It would have to be for hundreds of tracks to be a large enough claim to be feasible. A claim can be made - yes, but the burden of proof lies upon the claimant, and it would be quite an uphill task in practice to prove that the defendant was responsible and that damages were actually suffered. Further, any record company which did this would become extremely unpopular. In reality, bringing a successful claim on these lines would be barely practicable, and bringing millions of claims against millions of people would be totally out of the question. I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said that the best way to get an obsolete law abolished is to enforce it.
We could start with the Theft Act 1968 section 1(1) and take it from there: 'A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly'.
There is plenty of case law on exactly what 'permanently deprives' means, plus section 6 of the Theft Act, but essentially if the owner of some property still possesses it he plainly has not been deprived of it permanently (or at all).
