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Purity Brown

Discussion in 'Ducati General Discussion' started by Sev, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. No, unfortunately not the character from Nemesis the warlock.

    Looking for frames for the 916 currently I thought I'd canvas some thoughts.

    At what point do you say that something is not something anymore, and therefore doesn't command a perceived value, or alternatively command and value at all.

    lets use the 916 as an example, as it's common as muck as far as now vintage ducati's are concerned.

    So you have a bike, say an original strada, you go to sell it because sheffield for argument sake is now pumping them out at 15k, and the buyer comes along and says yea, but it's not an original one - five spoke wheels, not period correct, ohlins forks not the 40mm showas etc etc.

    So in your eyes, all these years on, at what point does a bike stop being what it was and is now a collection of bits?

    I know that in 888 circles there was a point where to find an 888 with matching engine and frame vin as on the v5 were very thin on the ground, as so many had had 916 engine swaps in them, and of course we saw this with 916 and the teststretta engines / 999 with the 1x9x engines etc.

    Naturally all this stuff is done when there parts are plentiful and the preserving of originality is not foremost on the mind of the buyers and sellers, but as time passes, people start to become a little more 'purist' in what they're after.

    In my case, I've identified several frames for sale.
    The cheapest is a 748 frame, but me being me wants my 916 to have a 916 frame.
    The most expensive is actually a strada frame with some of it's service history and paperwork.
    Then there are the in between stuff which are just the frames of various vintages with a v5 and nothing more.

    In the case of the strada frame, it seems a very attractive buy - sought after, values going up etc etc.
    However, the engine I have is a Biposto with a 16m ecu, the wheels are five spoke marchesini and all syspension and damping system hydraulics are ohlins.

    There is none of the original plastics in terms of airbox or seat undertray etc and I wouldn't want to replace my carbon for said plastic, so is there any point in paying for a saught after frame variant if I'm not going to create a slavish restoration of that said variant down to the detail of period correct wheels, airbox etc - after all, especially Ducati how many after all these years could we say are still showroom spec.

    In my mind however I'd rather buy an 888 say, with a mismatching engine number than an 888 with the old engine number ground off and an attempt at stamping the one on the vin on it - the first has a story behind it, the second just seems dishonest on the part of the seller.

  2. Good question.What are you doing with when complete?If youre moving it on I would guess the original bits,as in o.e. would be the best way.
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  3. I'm not a purist which could mean I have a bias.

    I can't see the point in paying extra money for a "purist dream frame" which is then attached to "the wrong wheels/ engine/ suspension". Unless the frame is an investment to sell at a later date and the soon to be assembled bike dismantled?

    The pursists will likely want all original for their own reasons and will not want your bike nor pay top price.

    i'd think about what I had planned for the bike:
    Keeping longterm as a usable beauty for myself?
    Assembling a coveted bike, but will probably break it in a year or two for parts or sell whole to non purist buyer?
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  4. Interesting isn't it when you think about it.

    for my part my only requirement for me would be that its an honest bike. My old SS was a cat d and in truth i built it for me and sold it to someone who accepted that.

    for the 916 it would bevthe same, and if i ever sold it i would sell it as a complete concern.

    i couldn't see myself buying a ducati only if it was as it came off the line as I’d already want to change so much on it, and therefore a machine that was more of what i wanted to do would be far more attractive.

    I was browsing some old threads on here and recall one about some project or other with a poster commenting about the wheels not being period correct.

    pablo pirate is another example where his superlight is aN amazing bike but a superlight in frame only in the purist eyes as everything else has changed.

    So at what point do you say its not what it says on the tin, and do you care?

    certainly for someone like @Exige where his collection is an investment then his criteria would be very different when eyeing up a bike for the stable.
  5. I am very like you, I change/ mod my bikes alot and always with a view to improving them. I bought my current bike in part because of (price) the expensive engine mods that were already done. I would not pay more for a bike with a "worse" (original) engine just because it was the same as Luiggi bolted it together on Wednesday morning in Bologna 20 years ago.. So perhaps I will buy your 916 one day LOL.

    I doubt many people would know the differences between a OEM 916 and one that has a few mods -,unless they have asked here.

    Investments are an entirely different animal. The provenance and abosolute originality is what gives them the value.
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  6. Not necessarily, only one of my 1098R's is minty fresh :)
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  7. If its for you to ride and enjoy,then stick what bits you want on it..........And then enjoy it!
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Some really good points here, and also worth considering we are in different times, when we were buying these bikes back in the day, I bought my 996 back in 01, we weren't buying 'future cassics' just buying bikes, a small number of those bikes survived reasonably unscathed, every modification to my 996 is reversible should I want to do so but I've stuck over 50k miles on it so no matter how minty I make it, it will never have a premium.

    I tend to work from the frame out, a 748 with a 916 engine or a 916 with a 748 engine is just a Frankenbike to me and will always be valued as such, a bare minimum for a bike to be what it claims is a matching frame and period correct engine (ideally matching numbers) but those are just my thoughts.
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  9. My 1997 916 motorcycle was upgraded with the period parts by the first owner two years after he purchased it back in 1999 at a local dealer & including alterations to the engine spec (receipts for £18k plus:eek:)
    So not everybody's cup of tea but if you rode it over the stock one you would prefer it,IMO
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  10. You cant put a 916 engine in a 888, without so much modifications. Unless a S4 engine is used...
  11. ok without going into technical minutiae it was more to illustrate a point.

    Is an 888 with an s4 engine and say a radial fork or a 65mm fork conversion still an 888?
    Or have we gone full triggers broom where all that's left is the frame and bodywork.

    At what point would someone buying an 888 view it, and say... frankenbike or bitser... it's not an 888 despite what the v5 says.
    #11 Sev, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  12. I have a 748R frame with lots of goodies bolted on, it would make financial sense to break it, rather than sell as a complete bike.

    I do believe the frame came from someone on here, who sold their bike to elite bike.
  13. The point you seek has everything to do with the buyer. It is subjective.
  14. That to me is no longer an 888 .... its just a bitsa ....
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  15. There were minimal improvements in the 916 lump 97-99 before the 996 came in unless he had a 955 conversion done, so hat exactly was done for 18k ? You could have built a BSB engine for that in those days.
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  16. Agreed:upyeah:
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  17. I don't think it matters too much to be honest. If you want a period correct fresh from factory look then that will be your passion. Some will see one or two additions as common sense updates, in most cases I would normally keep the original parts whilst using the bike with the suitable upgrades, to then offer a possible future owner both options

    But whether it is for an investment, a project or even to thrash the tits off of it, there needs to be a sense of personal ownership and wish for it to be as you want it.
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  18. ok then, if you were the buyer of anything in this light... where would you draw the line between bitsa and bike in your personal opinion?
  19. Good Lord... £18’000 was/is a shed load of dosh, as @Dibble said, what on Earth was done as a modification to the standard 916 for that amount?
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  20. My opinion, if you are building from the frame up it will always be a bitsa. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it is what it is.

    I can't imagine at sale time you'd try to hide this fact either as you seem a very honest bloke.

    If you try to source all parts dated from the same model/year you'll either go broke or crazy or both.

    Happy to be proven wrong though.
    #20 Cream_Revenge, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
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