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The Trackday Conundrum

Discussion in 'Trackdays & Rider Skills' started by bradders, Jun 25, 2020.

  1. In order not to derail too far (as it was developing) the other post and so devalue the message after the sad news of Ben losing his life, a new thread.

    ‘The problem’
    Racers mixing with trackdayers on regular days and the difference in competence and speed this could be at times. Racers have a different set out boundaries which don’t suit many (most?) trackdayers. E.g. passing at 6ft is a mile for a seasoned racer, where average Joe thinks his/her arm has been brushed.

    so what’s the answer? (If indeed it is actually a problem)
    • Like Like x 1
  2. If the letter A is worth one point and the letter Z is worth 26.......
    HARDWORK will almost get you there 96
    KNOWLEDGE also nearly 98

    add up the letter in ATTITUDE.. it comes to 100%
    interestingly BULLSHIT exceeds 100% and as i shout at those on tv "wanting it more than 100%" its not possible!
  3. It’s all about numbers/maths.....

    1. people have to lap within a bracket of x amount of seconds to dictate their group.
    2. ACU race licence means no novice or inters - Fast only, at push unless their lap times are outside of said bracket. An ACU register needs to be shared with Trackday firms matching, names, DOB and a postcode so this can be checked automatically with basic CRM software.
    3. Instructors are their to police or be helpful and need to communicate this properly. 30% of my experiences with instructors are not positive.
    4. No gingers allowed

    Whilst deaths are minimal, I bet the cost of crashes each year is a significant total and putting people within the correct group could lead to a decrease of offs. Having said that, 3 of my crashes have been 100% rider error.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. I seem to remember (and it would have to have been several years ago since I did a track day in the UK other than the Ducati days) that a track day provider offered a 3 group day for fast intermediates, fast and ACU licence holders. Not having looked for a track day in the UK for ages, I don’t know if that sort of day still happens. It would amount to reserving 1 or 2 days in the lead up to the start of the season and a race day. Given just for the BSB support races you have stock 1000, superstock 600, superstock 1000, Tri options ? That’s quite a big market to draw interest from. Andy
  5. I personally would pay more money to have less people on track. 45 at Donington on a quiet day instead of 60 on a noisy day makes a massive difference.
  6. The root of the problem seems to be riders in the wrong group for their experience / skill.

    I will begin with a proposal, let’s discuss whether it is realistic.

    Proposal: transponders are mandatory and group re-assignment happens after the first session and every session the whole day.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. I do pay extra and get open pit lane, restricted to a maximum of 45 riders, most of whom I know as we are regulars with the same provider ........ and it’s in Spain. Andy
    • Like Like x 1
  8. The drive home from Doni last weekend was full of reflection, even though we were not aware of the tragic outcome.
    I am back out next Monday and hoping to get to Portimao in July.
    I don't think anything has changed or will change. Motorsport is dangerous and can be fatal. It doesn't matter whether you are ACU, Racer or track day, most of the time all is well, until it isn't. You simply cannot regulate for that.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. @Ash34
    I've been part of many multiday set ups like this while living in Sweden. What they also did was run day 2 or 3 as timed trackdays in the morning,
    leading to qualifying/ grid placements on the afternoon for each group. Those not wanting to partake of the grid start, merely emerged from pitlane as normal once the last gridded bike was away and circulated with their normal trackday pace group.

    99% of the time this worked well and sorted the groups quite intuitively. There was always the 1% of sandbagging tossers that ran easy through the timed
    session, then rode it like they stole it from the grid start to "win the trackday".

    The timed sorting allowed for days of around 160 riders without any big concerns.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. For me, the issue is not the racer, it is the track day hero who is way out of their depth and suddenly puts themselves in the way with the inevitable consequence of a coming together. I ride with people faster than me but they know when they come up behind me, I will take the same line, lap after lap. I'm consistent and predictable, a lot of riders are not. I also don't spook when someone comes underneath me. Andy
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. As suggested groups on track by level of competence will assist. No of course it won't stop accidents but certain preventable accidents caused by vastly different lines, speed and reactions could be averted.
  12. but in theory they are grouped....
  13. They are grouped by rider self image/honesty. Ok for a starting point, but they need to be reshuffled once the day is also factored in.
    Some days rider A may be untouchable in the fast group, other days he may need to be moved to inters. TDOs really need to step in and do what they are taking the money for. If a few nuggets let pride get in the way and can't take the group changes, then hopefully they don't come back and we are all safer as a result. (I have been rider A when the race lads turned up en masse. Very humbling).
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  14. 100% agree, it all depends on who else is there not how fast you think YOU are. I have similarly been shuffled down and up depending on the day. The only safer way is through transponders and all though I know they're not the most popular, FE picked this up a while ago and aside from the initial outlay, I cannot understand why other major TDO's with that level of funding haven't followed suit. I've pretty much stopped doing UK track days partly due to the randomness of miss grouped riders, partly for the unreliable weather.. the rain ruins my hair-do.:D
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. No. Sounds good in theory but so do nudist beaches until you have a look.
    It would be very work intensive for the organisers and would also lead to a bit of banzai super pole mentality. I think this theory could be applied to a euro gig (3 or 4 days straight) but not on a single UK day.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  16. Not too hard in practice. Timed sessions for the first couple of hrs to let folk settle in as per their registrations. Computer sorts them out and new groups
    printed out and posted at TDO desk for post lunchtime sessions where generally folk have found their lines and start to get a bit quicker.
    Its not bullet proof but it's better than the pub rating system, or how fast we would like to be.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Yes - FE always used to do this, may still do at the limited number of UK days they do.
  18. NL euro trips are timed.....last time out at Portimao you could see the out of control, trying too hard ambition outweighing talent, ...a guy on a black triumph, he was greeted day two morning with a note on his bike to "see me" drop down a group! He went and argued with the staff that others were getting in his way and in his opinion he is normally faster than that....
  19. Didn't focused events run timer up to lunch time then swap every one about after??
  20. Transponders for all riders, first few TDs they leave the groups and don't tell the riders. After a few TDs the organisers will build up a picture of the riders true speed. After that, when a rider books the system can spot if someone is in the wrong group by a distance. Having said that, it's bloody obvious if any of the big boys turn up.

    I do think this year is a bit special due to racing being on hold due to Covid and the racers now desperate for lap time before racing starts.

    For the next month or 2 I'd approve of 4 groups for 15 mins instead of the normal 3. I'm knackered after 15 mins anyway.
    • Agree Agree x 2
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