1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Waterless Coolant

Discussion in 'Technical Help' started by Robarano, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. So what are people's thoughts on the video then?
     
  2. are the latest ducatis pressurised systems?
    i.e do the header tanks screw on or just have a push in cap?
     
  3. It would be very interesting indeed if Ducati have abandoned the standard practice of pressurising the cooling system, which allows the boiling point of the coolant to be raised significantly.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. I genuinely don't know Old Rider, hence asking the question. The japanese don't, they have the expansion tank to bleed off but the system isn't under pressure. I just wondered if the ducati watercooled bikes high temp cooling system is pressurised or not.
     
  5. But the main cooling system is under pressure.... it's just the overflow that is caught.
    Water and antifreeze is super slippy when mixed with hot tyres.... as I know from last time I was out at Rockingham.... thought I had a slipping clutch until the end of the straight....:poop::poop::poop::poop::poop:
     
  6. Wow, I am amazed.
    So, pressurising the system is rather less universal than I thought.
    Will have to take a look at my daughter's Hornet...
     
  7. They are not testing the temperatures on the road and it would frankly provide some entertainment to the thermodynamicists at Ducati's engine department. Starting off by incorrectly identifying a piece of wood and then showing a lack of any full understanding of the systems does not help.

    For your bike put the water wetter in and see what happens, without the heat shielding you will still have the same problem of cooking your thighs but at least the engine will be able to improve some of its heat dissipation issues
     
  8. aye must trouser filling.

    In fully pressurising the system your boiling point increases dramatically vs an unpressurised one.
    I'll go into it later, but before I spout on here I'll ask our principle powertrain engineer to read over it. :)
     
  9. OR, modern Ducatis, (like all the water cooled ones) use pressurized systems
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. As I would expect...
     
  11. Just checked and the Hornet is pressurised to 1.1-1.3 bar/16-20 psi
     
  12. Ok, so in its most simplest form –

    If the header tank has a pressure cap then the system is a pressurised one, if the header tank is just a rubber bung then it’s an expansion tank system.

    The advantage of a fully pressurised system is as we all know the boiling point of a liquid increases under pressure.

    Thus the boiling point of the coolant will also increase under pressure.

    This has various benefits over an above the above, insofar that micro bubbles are less likely to form in a high pressure environment vs a conventional system, hence having a benefit to the minimising of cavitation in alloys caused by micro pockets of air.

    The system is more efficient at heat rejection – because for example, say the inlet temperature of water to the engine is 80 degrees but the exit is 120, when it enters the radiator the difference is greater allowing for a greater heat rejection potential.

    This allows the manufacturer to consider various options such as reducing the size of the radiator as a result of this improved thermal efficiency, or alternatively they can slow the system down allowing the coolant more time to gather an collect heat without risk of boiling. Or both in the case of a works bike with a dirty huge radiator, big bore hoses and lower system flow rates.

    In a conventional system yes the radiator cap provides a little pressure, but the bleed off will always be to an un-pressurised vessel in the form of the expansion tank, which is just an overflow as the liquid expands.


    Water wetters and their ilk…

    Fundamentally it’s this –it works like an adhesion promoter for the coolant liquid to adhere to the cooling system internals rather than reticulating as can happen in micro pockets within radiator core matrices and on metal components.

    You know when you drop water on something and some stuff it just beads, and other stuff it clings and spreads - the water wetter makes it cling and spread to cover the substrate.

    What this means is that you’re minimising the micro cavitation in the system as the coolant liquid is stuck to the surface.

    Like boiling a saucepan of liquid and seeing all those bubbles start appearing on the side of the saucepan. Now imagine adding something and no bubbles appear and the water just boils / gets to temperature quicker, but in the case of the radiator your thermal efficiency is increased because you’re not getting micro/nano pockets of steam which is a poor conductor of heat.

    Why don’t OEM’s use them? Probably two things… price and (probably more likely) who has the responsibility should a vehicle have an unexplained “thermal incident”

    Also, the emissions targets etc and certification documents will be driven by a given set of parameters and operating ranges – and for this we have to take worst case into account – and customer deciding that glycol regular coolant is good enough as he’s not paying for than new fangled shite, and some markets may not allow such things within the framework of their vehicle certification boards, not to mention that certain things like fuel atomisation, combustion and exhaust efficiency is tuned to a certain operating temperature range - hence stuff running rich at cold or until you've got a good few miles under the belt of the thing, or in the case of a set of flatslide carbs just barely able to ignite the fuel at all until you've got some heat in the head.

    Naturally like all things, some will fond it of benefit more than others. Mr daily commute will derive less benefit from it that man who either spends time on track generating lots of heat but not the capacity to reject it till the next big burst of power, or perhaps even mr Stop start traffic man, who never hears his engine over the roar of his cooling fans on flat chat all the time.

    In essence a water wetter won’t be any worse than what you have in there already, so it’s really up to you how you spend your money in this respect.

    It's no jesus component, so in reality it's not going to magically make everything better if it's already compromised.

    I looked at stuff like the waterless coolant as well, but couldn't find any empirical data realting to long term use or effects of it's degredation - that and how does one flush this stuff out of the system should it be required, and how will it take to being flushed if it's that good at sticking to surfaces.:upyeah::)
     
    #72 Sev, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  13. Don't forget the issues of coolant compatibility and the difficulties of proper flushing when the bike next gets a coolant change or service. One of those issues that can be easy to manage for track bikes, not so easy on road bikes. Is it worth the hassle with the marginal (at best) results for road use?
     
  14. this was my concern - and the main reason why an OEM won't warranty it.
    Even for track bikes, if the adhesion properties are as good as they claim, how easy will it be to fully remove it from the system?

    The water wetter sounds like the safe option in this case as its a small amount in your existing coolant setup, but the waterless coolant is a different matter entirely. There's currently no empirical long term study done on what happens to alloys where this has had say three years of duty cycle / x thousands of miles of running.

    On our GT race cars when the (water cooled) oil and gearbox cooler used to shit itself and contaminate the coolant system, as a quick dirty fix we used to just crumble a dish washer tablet into the circuit, run it up nice and hot and then dump the coolant, flush and refill.

    Awesome stuff finish tablets - they might work to flush this stuff out as well!
     
    • Like Like x 1
Do Not Sell My Personal Information